Wednesday 8 April 2009

Populist Politics, the BNP Way

Parties that do not hold office have, it is said, the luxury of opposition. The far left is all too often a case study in this piece of political wisdom. There's been plenty of times I've wondered if much of the far left actually want to recruit millions to its politics - I suspect for many a petty sect and guru, they don't. But for parties that have a little more muscle, electorally speaking, this luxury manifests itself in populism. On the one hand there are the politics of easy solutions to complex problems, and on the other there's being seen to be doing popular things.

This pretty much sums up the political approach of the BNP. Their politics are entirely negative - blame the "Marxists" who run the government and media. Blame the Muslims/blacks/asylum seekers, etc. We know the tiresome drill, and it's unfortunate crap like this can fall on fertile ground in some places. Take Stoke for example. This kind of "politics" is the BNP's stock in trade. Presumably the Potteries would flow with milk and honey if the foreigners depart and take their funny languages, religions and clothes with them.

But there's another aspect to Stoke BNP, and this is the second dimension of populism - of being seen to do popular things. So successful has the BNP been pursuing this that Stoke Central
Labour MP, Mark Fisher has publicly stated that he believes them to be good community councillors. What is it that they do?

Take Cllr Steve Batkin, for example. To call him a complete tool in the council chamber would do my screwdriver set a great disservice. But during his first term on the council in Longton North, Batkin built a reputation as a community councillor. Got a lawn needing a mow? Need help with that flatpack cabin bed? Just give your friendly neighbourhood fascist a bell and around he'd come. You could tag-team the MDF as he informed you on the finer points of ornithology and Holocaust revisionism. And if no one required his special services he could be found of an afternoon litter-picking his way around the ward. For this he's earned the almost-affectionate epithet of Bin Bag Batkin.

Credit where credit's due. Old Bin Bag has finally learned to utter a few words in the council chamber, which is more than can be said for his fellow BNP'er, Cllr David Marfleet. Almost two years he's sat there and not uttered a single word. Will he serve a full term without opening his gob?

There is a more damaging aspect to this kind of populism. Ellie and Alby Walker (pictured), who along with Michael Coleman form the "brains" of the local BNP group, are past masters at this sort of activity. One thing the Walkers do without fail is provide a kind of meals on wheels service for some of the old folk around Abbey Hulton and often leave full council to do the rounds. Yes, it's great PR for the BNP. I'm sure their families might appreciate the Walkers' efforts and think about putting a cross in the BNP's box come the next elections.

But hold on a second, shouldn't this be a service provided by the council? If it is failing on meals on wheels, instead of taking on the responsibility themselves wouldn't the Walkers be better serving the voters of the Abbey by making sure this service is available? They obviously do not think so. Not only have they failed to raise the issue in the council chamber, despite plenty of opportunities for doing so, Ellie Walker left one council meeting specifically on elderly provision ... to deliver the meals! And the Walkers have the bare-faced cheek to pretend they're the only ones who care about "our people"!

If the BNP gave a shit they would have addressed the lack of service provision to the Abbey's elderly. But it suits them politically to be seen to be doing something about it themselves. This is not community activism. This is not what being an effective councillor is about. It's pure gesture politics.


Phil said...

Such superb spam that I'm willing to let this one stand as an exemplar of the art.

But anyway, the BNP and populism: thoughts?

Bent Society said...

Spam aside. Most people do not know what kind of people are running the BNP. Nick Griffin and his button-down racists dream of a nightmare vision for Britain if they obtain power. Read here the materials (written by Griffin and his BNP ilk) that they have taken from their website in order to appear "safe":

Anonymous said...

This is a very good post Phil.

I would guess the BNP in Stoke have hit on a strategy that works, providing a service to some community members, and don't want to do anything to alter this if it's winning them votes.

It looks like the beginnings of a local version of patrimonial/clientist politics where political parties can exchange certain resources in return for votes.

I'm also getting the curious urge to investigate what 'wow gold' is.

Matt Sellwood said...

It's World of Warcraft money.

I'm so depressed that I knew that.

brotherf said...

good post phil. I've always said that if BNP councillors actually did something then they would be dangerous.

thinkingdifference said...

very good points! you're absolutely right, we only see the PR side of things, but fail to question how these councilors are in fact not doing their job and yet they are still paid out of of taxpayers money...

Anonymous said...

Incredable, if they do nothing they are damned if they do ptactical stuff they are damned. How do you know they have not tried to improve services, but thats hard when all other parties refuse to work with them. So fuck off you prick!

ModernityBlog said...

exactly Phil, that's the problem with neo-fascists, as thick as we might think they are, they do learn, bit by bit and their hunger for real power drives them on, that's why we should never underestimate them.

Phil said...

A little more politics and a little less projection if you please, anonymous. Swearing is neither big nor clever.

How do I know the BNP don't struggle to improve services?

1) I have an ability to read the local newspaper.

2) I know people who keep tabs on what Stoke BNP are up to.

3) There was a recent split in Stoke BNP, with a group of racists leaving because they were fed up of the BNP's refusal to offer any concrete policy alternatives.

4) Walking out of council meetings dealing with elderly provision does not suggest a serious attitude to politics.

And finally, 5) If the BNP offered policy alternatives, why don't they say so in their propaganda. Instead all we get are how evil Muslims are.

Anonymous, stick that in your pipe. It does help to know what you're talking about before you wade in.

The BNP Chronicle said...

Sorry to barge in on this lefty love fest.

As Stoke BNP don't control the council (yet) they can't rectify this situation.

Remind me reds, who runs Stoke-On-Trent council?

Phil said...

Got to love the language. Reds indeed.

I didn't know running the council was prerequisite for opening your gob and saying something.

Any thoughts on your councillors' less than lacklustre performance?

The BNP Chronicle said...

If they produce "less than lacklustre" performances then why are they predicted to gain control of the council within the next few years.

Also, why would a Labour MP praise them if they didn't deserve it?

No. Credit where it's due.

The Sentinel said...

As pointed out above (and as you well know) the Stoke BNP do not yet control the council and are limited as to what they can do - so really your 'meals on wheels' question should be addressed to the extreme leftist's that are (temporally) in control.

The BNP are well known for their community work wherever they have seats (and even where they don't) and are the only elected officials I have ever seen willing to get their hands dirty, and in their own time and frequently even out of their own pocket. The condescending scoffing that you and your extreme left buddies employ in response to it is completely out of kilter of the reaction of ordinary people - and believe me, does you no favours at all.

Also, as you well know again, the BNP's elected officials are also universally treated to the most disgusting and contemptuous display of antidemocratic obstruction imaginable,

Mark Meredith, Stoke's former mayor, in collusion with other the other parties excluded the BNP councillors from his cross-party executive in clear contempt for democracy and the British electorate - do you think that may have had some effect?

And this contempt is applied to all BNP elected officials:

"Mayor Boris Johnson has refused to speak to Mr Barnbrook and all four parties look set to shun him"

"Len Duvall, leader of the eight-strong Labour group on the Assembly, said: "All the parties want to isolate and ignore him {Richard Barnbrook} If civil servants refuse to work with him I expect they will be supported in their decision. Even at the results count he was out on a limb. The fact that he got in is an insult to our parents and grandparents who fought and lived through the war."'s%20Assembly%20member%20to%20be%20shunned%20by%20all%20parties/

"The BBC blocked a British National Party representative yesterday from appearing on an episode of Question Time to be recorded in the party's stronghold of Burnley.

The BBC blocked a British National Party representative yesterday from appearing on an episode of Question Time to be recorded in the party's stronghold of Burnley.

The ban came as the Government revealed fears the far-right party will gain a foothold in the European Parliament next year by winning one of the seats for North-west England."

"Halifax MP Linda Riordan is calling for newly-elected BNP councillor Tom Bates to step down as a parent governor at Moorside Primary School in Ovenden, Halifax, because of his party's beliefs."

To quote just a few examples.

And lastly, you and you're comrades insistence on branding BNP voters either evil racists or gullible idiots does nothing to counter the BNP at all - quite the opposte.

Face it, the BNP are emerging as a powerfull mainstream party everyday whilst the extreme left are rapidly waning.

Jenny Harvey said...

The BNP have only managed to appear mainstream by obscuring their true nature. Their fascist rascist biggotry towards anyone of difference is completely out of step with any modern society. They have gained a few crubs of power on the back of the hysterical antiimigration and islamaphobic tawdry rags of the Mail, Express and the like.
If they were ever to gain any real power or governance their facade of a manifesto would crumble under any serious scrutiny.

This is not about Extreme Right against Extreme Left politics, but a battle between Hope and Hate

The BNP Chronicle said...

Ohh Jenny Jenny Jenny! If I was an ovulating over emotional red I would have shed a tear at that little sample of hysterical hyperbole.

When reason fails, lashings of bull usually does the trick. Doesn't it?

Phil said...

I've often wondered, given the political climate in Britain, why the BNP are not doing better. Xenophobia and antipathy towards immigrants is widespread. The EU is widely despised. The right-wing press daily feed this with never ending stories about evil Muslims and the dangers of political correctness. And yet, the BNP has only 50 odd councillors.

Then you realise it's politically illiterate morons like Sentinel and Chronicle who are tasked with selling the BNP's message to the general public, and you begin to see why.

Bent Society said...

"Reds" ha ha hah ha. What a bunch of thick bleating pack-sheep. If you vote for these retards then expect a world where the thick, uneducated, disfunctional, degenerate, playground bully has power.

Anonymous said...

Shouldn't you be revising for your GCSE's or something BNP Chronicle?

As Stoke BNP don't control the council (yet) they can't rectify this situation.

Remind me reds, who runs Stoke-On-Trent council?

I don't know why you need reminding but it's the Labour Party. However, you won't find many fans of the Labour Party here BNP Chronicle.

The Socialist Party, the author of this blog and myself are members, has fought the various public service cuts and privatisation initiatives from the current Labour government and local councils tooth and nail.

Our aim is to do more than apportion the blame for this situation though. We think a political party that claims to be different from the mainstream parties and stand up for ordinary people should try and do something about the situation rather than, say, wandering out of council meetings on the subject or not saying anything.

The BNP Chronicle said...

No. I completed those joke qualifications years ago. MSc at the moment Duncan.

You could be describing the BNP there, all of the above the BNP does and does it better.

As for you Phil, displaying YOUR political illiteracy (100 Councillors!) after accusing others, is quite amusing.

Why haven't the Socialist Party done better? I've said before that you lot are jealous that a real revolutionary party is making ground.

Sour grapes indeed for the old unrepentant Communists within your ranks.

Hilarity ensues.

Anonymous said...

You could be describing the BNP there, all of the above the BNP does and does it better.

Alright then, if that's the case then let me ask you a quick question.

As I'm sure you're aware, over the last few years the government has had a policy of closing local community hospitals, generally known as cottage hospitals, along with cutting services at larger hospitals.

Thankfully, some of these closures have been prevented thanks to the efforts of many local campaign groups which have sprund up around the country.

Could you name me a single community hospital the BNP have saved or a single succesful campaign the BNP have participated in to save a local hospital?

Since the BNP does it so much better than, say, the Socialist Party I'm sure you'll be able to name dozens!

Also, the 100 councillor figure includes parish councillors who don't have any real power. I believe Phil was referring to local councillors of who the BNP have around 56.

brother F said...

'The Sentinel said...

the extreme leftist's that are (temporally) in control.'

I almost choked on my pasta when I read this, do you honestly believe that shite?

If the pro cuts, pro capitalist, pro privatisation labor are EXTREME LEFT? what the hell am I?

on an unrelated note...
Cllr Michael Coleman bought a copy of the socialist off me today, that was a wierd experience.

The Sentinel said...

As per usual for the extreme left, a debate is dragged straight into in the gutter with malicious personal insults, groundless labels, frantic evasions and of course, lashings of argument ad hominem.

Jenny's hysterical gibberish is just a return back to the extreme left's patronizing mantra that BNP voters are either evil Nazis or gullible idiots; a mantra that quite obviously does you no favors whatsoever.

Hope and Hate?

Don't make me laugh!

Britain under the left has become a place of totalitarianism, extremism, ignorance and criminality.


We have the most tightly monitored and controlled society in the world with more cameras per head of population than anywhere else in the world; the right to silence ended; DNA and fingerprint samples taken by force and retained from innocents, even children; biometric RFID passports and even travel (Oyster cards); a massive government database holding details of every phone call, e-mail and time spent on the internet by the public is being planned, as is haversting all the details from the likes of Facebook, Myspace and Bebo; The government is compiling a database to track and store the international travel records of millions of Britons, the database will store names, addresses, telephone numbers, seat reservations, travel itineraries and credit card details of travellers; government plans to install a black box into every car tracking movement and speed...


We now have Islamic suicide bombers; Islamic terror plots and threats almost daily; "British" imam's then praising these suicide bombers while others call for our destruction; Islamic protesters being protected by our police whilst holding up placards "Behead those who insult Islam" - "Butcher those who mock Islam" - "Freedom go to hell" - "Europe you will pay, you're extermination is on the way" 'Anglian Soldiers: cowards, killers, extremists' - 'Anglian Soldiers: Butchers of Basra'; Shia law legally enforceable in the UK through 5 courts; the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act that effectively prevents democratic demonstration; reasonable freedom of speech banned by so-called 'hate' laws...


Every year 100000 pupils leave school functionally illiterate in the UK (1 in 5); 30,000 children leave primary schools each year, barely able to do the simplest calculations; 25% of Children Don't Know Auschwitz From a Beer Brand; fewer than half of the Children questioned knew Sir Francis Drake defeated the Spanish Armada; Nine in 10 ignorant about Civil War; A poll of 11- to 16-year-olds in 10 countries found that British youngsters were the least likely to make the effort to understand current events in the world or to learn a foreign language; One in five pupils who took the basic science GCSE this year believes the Sun orbits the Earth and one in ten of those taking the same exam did not know that a rechargeable battery could be used more than once; exam standards dramatically lowered – an actual Science GCSE question: 1 Our moon seems to disappear during an eclipse. Some people say this is because an old lady covers the moon with her cloak. She does this so that thieves cannot steal the shiny coins on the surface. Which of these would help scientists to prove or disprove this idea? a. collect evidence from people who believe the lady sees the thieves b. shout to the lady that the thieves are coming c. send a probe to the moon to search for coins d. look for fingerprints…


Violent crime in Britain is rising at the second fastest rate in the world and escalating at the same rate as crime-ridden South Africa, according to a government study; Scotland's murder rate is the fastest-rising in Western Europe and the sixth-fastest in the world, according to a new report by the United Nations; the number of young people prosecuted for firearms offences has soared by 20 per cent in the past five years; There have been reports of at least one group {Gang} sex attack every day for the past year; a trawl through the courts revealed that, in 80 per cent of the cases of gang {group} rape, the defendants are black; Women and girls of white or European appearance accounted for 59% of victims; Black youngsters are five times more likely to be in prison {then whites}…

Add an economic meltdown to all of this and you have a very, very dire situation.

Hate or hope! You don’t live in the real world, Love!

And all of this is under the watch of the Labour movement, you’re movement.

You can twist and turn about how its not you're ‘flavor of red’ but the fact is that the left has presided over all of this (but it is an amusing ‘defense’ seeing as quick you are to condemn all nationalists as Nazis and Fascists.)

Phil, given that you already conceded the BNP has at least 157 elected officials and that you and you’re ilk have none, is it really wise to keep highlighting the BNP’s continuing success over you’re own lamentable failure?

As for ignorance, you are priceless! You indulge in the most petty and childish name calling and tactics, and are not averse to outright lying and falsifying when cornered. just like the rest of you’re poisonous little clan, as proved recently at length with the most bizarre, deeply malicious and immensely ignorant ‘Boffy.’

But the simple fact is that you get ripped apart in any real debate you have with me, Phil, because of the simple fact that the truth is on my side. So when all diversions and contortions fail, as they have frequently, you prefer to rely on evasion and personal insults.

And as for you Duncan, you are a prime example of the elitist ‘champagne’ socialist set (along, I strongly suspect, with Phil) You have no real affinity with the working classes, and from what I have read from you over the years you have no idea of working class hardships and deprivations having never experienced them, which is hardly surprising as you now lounge around the expensive, elitist Cambridge university attempting to taunt ‘lesser’ people with you’re much superior, elitist education and intellect whilst trying to be fashionably radical.

As for NHS hospitals, in their current disgraceful Third World state they need shutting down: MRSA is rampant as is other easily preventable poor hygiene diseases; patient starvation and neglect are endemic and medical blunders / negligence is commonplace.

But as pointed out in the above post, the BNP had been undemocratically excluded by cross-party executive in Stoke by the then mayor (since resigned after being arrested for corruption) and were rendered virtually powerless despite a mandate from the public.
The same applies to virtually every other elected BNP area of interest with Boris Johnson refusing to speak to the democratically elected BNP Richard Barnbrook – who has as much right to be there and speak as Johnson –and a public statement after election from Len Duvall, leader of the eight-strong Labour group on the Assembly : "All the parties want to isolate and ignore him {Richard Barnbrook} If civil servants refuse to work with him I expect they will be supported in their decision. Even at the results count he was out on a limb. The fact that he got in is an insult to our parents and grandparents who fought and lived through the war."

But, incidentally, Duncan, can you name these “many local campaign groups which have sprung up around the country” and demonstrate what they have to do with you’re party, and also provide evidence that they prevented any closures?

The BNP’s health policy is clear:

“We are wholly committed to a free, fully funded National Health Service for all British citizens. We will revitalise the Health Service by boosting staff and bed numbers, slashing unnecessary bureaucracy and by addressing the root cause of low recruitment and retention - low pay. We will see to it that no money is given in foreign aid while our own hospitals are short of beds and the staff to run them. More emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets.”

The Sentinel said...

"If the pro cuts, pro capitalist, pro privatisation labor are EXTREME LEFT? what the hell am I?"

Very tempting, but I will pass.

Phil said...

Sentinel, every time you write you expose your stupidity to the world. You don't need me to assist you.

Anonymous said...


you now lounge around the expensive, elitist Cambridge university

Well you've obviously been following me and my writing very closely since I don't go to Cambridge!

But, then, I think I've commented before on the distant relation between what you write and reality, facts, etc.

But, incidentally, Duncan, can you name these “many local campaign groups which have sprung up around the country” and demonstrate what they have to do with you’re party, and also provide evidence that they prevented any closures?

I'll wait for 'BNP Chronicle' to reply first, after all him and the BNP is so much better!

The Sentinel said...

That's it Phil, just more childish puerile personal insults - avoid debate at all costs!

You know you're onto a loser yet again!

Everytime you post you reveal the very tenuous link to reality you posses and the gutter tactics you embody.


No wonder you haven't got one elected official or a hope in hell's chance of ever influencing reality in this country! Better stick to your pseudo-intellectual mutualty affirming debating society, reality is far beyond you're reach.

And that's right Duncan, its the expensive, elitist Oxford university you lounge around preaching class warfare to others!

Like I said, you and Phil are just a pair of 'champagne socialists.'

Phil said...

If we're never going to achieve anything, I ought be grateful one as exalted as you descends upon this blog to point out the errors of my ways. If it wasn't for the Sentinel popping up and constantly humping my leg, I might have carried on thinking The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were forgeries, the human race originated in Africa, evolutionary science was more or less spot on, Americans landed on the Moon, New Labour was essentially right wing, Marxists don't run the world and the world wasn't flat. Praise be for The Sentinel! Long may the light of reason shine out his arse!

Anonymous said...

Proving Sentinel wrong, again.

No wonder you haven't got one elected official

Around 25 members of the Socialist Party are elected members of trade union national executive committees.

Though elections aren't a significant part of our activity the Socialist Party has two councillors in Coventry, two in Lewisham and another in Huddersfield.

Is Oxford more expensive than other universities by the way?

'champagne socialists.'

Prefer bitter myself.

The Sentinel said...

That's the way Phil, more childish and puerile rubbish from you!

Anything to distract away from the fact that you can't hold you're own in a real debate. You are intelligent enough to know that you are not intelligent enough to win. That's something I guess.

Like I said, the facts are not on you're side.

This multi-cult experiment is a disaster - and so is every other Marxist imposed fantasy turned reality turned nightmare.

You know, facts like in 80 per cent of the cases of gang rape, the defendants are black; Women and girls of white or European appearance accounted for 59% of victims; Black youngsters are five times more likely to be in prison... or maybe that some of our esteemed Islamic citizens hate us so much they blow themselves up on tube trains and buses whilst our Islamic guests plot more death and destruction...or maybe 'A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences...parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist...Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee{...}added: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”...

You know, facts like that.

Nice one Duncan 'proving me wrong' -, ha ha - 5 councillors!! Compared to the BNP's 157 elected officials! Not doing so good are you really? But of course, its because you're a politcal party where 'elections aren't a significant part of our activity!!" Amazing.

Funnily enough though, it does seem to be a significant enough part of you're activities when actual elections come around though, taking it upon yourselves to tell people who they can and can't vote for. It certainly seems important then.

The fact that the red rabble don't stand much at all is a combination of fear, lack of funds and more fundamentally, a complete lack of support. Oh it is important to you, you just know that you don't have a wet farts chance of winning.

So its played out in unions instead - hijacking the sole purpose of a workplace representation scheme to try to further you're agenda - selling out the workers. But that's coming to a head too.

And Duncan, according to you're own rabble the WRP :"STUDENTS {are} PRICED OUT OF ‘POSH’ UNIVERSITIES" with Oxford University among the most expensive.

That's right - posh universities like Oxford full of pampered 'radicals' like you shouting about 'class warfare' out of elitist windows. Amazing.

Bitter? You sure are.

Phil and Duncan, the 'champagne socialist' radicals!

brother_F said...

'The Sentinel said...
This multi-cult experiment is a disaster - and so is every other Marxist imposed fantasy turned reality turned nightmare.'

Hahahaha! you are priceless, ever considered doing stand up?

Phil said...

I don't debate with you Sentinel because

a) you never engage with what's being said - see above

b) you use tendentious data and present it as definitive facts

c) you are politically illiterate and have demonstrated so time and again

d) I'm disturbed by your rather unhealthy obsession with me. Is there something you're not telling us?

e) your "ideas" deserve derision, not debate

f) you are the most tedious self-important bore I've had the displeasure of meeting since becoming a blogger

g) I don't give a shit what you think

Anonymous said...

Compared to the BNP's 157 elected officials!

Where do this figure come from? It's another 'fact' made up by Sentinel.

according to you're own rabble the WRP

Nothing to do with me.

Oxford University among the most expensive.

So how much does it cost to go there then? Could you give me some figures?

How much does it cost to other universities in England and Wales?

I'd like some figures to support you assertions Sentinel not headlines from from tiny leftwing websites no-one reads.

elitist windows


So its played out in unions instead

Well union members do keep voting for us!

I'd have to second Phil on this point though, it's pointless to argue with Sentinel as he never engages with what's been written. Each new comment is the start of a new rant where he forgets everything which has been written before.

ian said...

Hi Phil

I see you have got the master race wound up again. Keep it up.


The Sentinel said...

Oh dear, the champagne socialists are baring their yellow teeth again!

brother f

Have you ever considered reality as an option?


The accurate 'champagne socialist' moniker has really stung you, has it not? I suppose if my basis and credentials in a movement were as phoney as yours and someone decided to highlight it then I would be angry too.

But, let's be accurate - you don't debate with me ANYMORE because you have been roundly beaten and embarrassed everytime you have tried it in the past, and you have had to resort to personal insults, group personal insults, bare faced lying and falsification of 'evidence'.

Knowing that you were making an arse of yourself you have now reverted to this 'I am morally superior' stance / caveat that is as transparent as it is cowardly.

a) Standard hypocrisy. I responded with evidence actually, you responded with off topic personal insults such as 'politically illiterate morons'.

b) I use evidence from all sources, but primarily sourced from mainstream newspapers, agencies, government and science organisations. And frequently I use sources that come form the 'other side of the argument' - such as the red rabble - and that statistic of 80% of gang rape defendants being black comes from an article by Darcus Howe (after research by C4.)

But then, you know all of this. It is the evidence you do not like and cannot counter so back we come to the lefts old favourite: argumentum ad hominem.

c) Just more argumentum ad hominem from a man who loses every debate he enagages in with me.

Hardly surprising given that you cling to a totally failed and discredited ideology that has murdered over 110,000,000 people world wide and now has but 5 council seats in the UK - yet you believe that this is the basis for you're world revolution!

d) Yet more pathetic argumentum ad hominem. All the more so, because, as you well know, I have never met you Phil, nor spoken to you and I don't even know what you look like and so consequently no personal motive could ever exist.

This is the true basis of that comment: When I post comments as regularly as others it is obsession - purely because I do not agree with you and you cannot counter it and so therefore you're ego and credibility are challenged. When affirmers post it is always interesting and welcome for the opposite reasons.

e) Or maybe they deserve the Gulag? An asylum? Political rehabilitation?

And coming from a man who is an left-wing extremist fanatic seeking to impose a nightmarish world of enforced political and economic uniformity on the world, a system that can only be maintained by way of secret police and terror and has claimed over 110,000,000 victims so far, its all just a little rich, don't you think Phil?

f) And more argumentum ad hominem - it's only when you came to the conclusion that you were making an arse of yourself trying to debate me that you came to this argumentum ad hominem conclusion.

Its just more very transparent caveats to avoid further damage to you're over inflated ego and fragile credibility.

g) And more yet more argumentum ad hominem.

Actually it is clear that you don't give a shit what virtually anyone thinks seeing as virtually everyone is complete disagreement with you and you're discredited ideas. Even down to the 'British jobs for British workers' protest you didn't give a shit what you're supposed cause celebre - you're purported reason for being - the workers, thought. You knew better then them didn't you? Apparently they didn't really mean what they said! And the ones that did, well, lets allude to their 'racism.'

But, the simple fact is that before too long you will give a shit what ordinary white working class people like me think Phil because we are going to take back positions of power in this country and set in place our agenda.

Until then though, you can always use you're favourite argumentum ad hominem tactics to smear anyone who dares dissent.


As usual, you make up the trio in the three ring circus.

"Where do this figure come from? It's another 'fact' made up by Sentinel."

Ha ha ha - you really are priceless! The extreme left hand doesn't know what the other extreme left hand is up to does it?

No, my little elitist 'champagne socialist' friend, those figures come straight from the organ grinder - you're ringleader - Phil BC:- "What is it about an organisation that only has 56 councillors, 100 parish councillors and a member of the London Assembly that can rouse the passions like no other political party?"

So seeing as you don't believe these figures, maybe you can ask Phil why he made them up or where he got the figures from?

"So how much does it cost to go there then? Could you give me some figures?"

Well. why don't you tell us Duncan? You know! And why don't you tell us who's paying for it and how?

Because let me tell you the working class reality is very different to the elitists 'champagne socialists' reality: Putting a kid through college is usually too prohibitive let alone university - but Oxford? No chance. Not without enormous luck or scholarship.

And why did it have to be the elitist Oxford anyway Duncan? Why couldn't it be one near where you hail from in cockinmouth?

But if you had read the article it gave you some figures and the source, the renowned 'push' that found "Oxford University continues to be among the most expensive,with a higher index than many London institutions"

Once again Duncan, it is not me you are desperately trying to argue with, it is reality.

And here are the just the fee's for where you attend:

"I'd have to second Phil on this point though, it's pointless to argue with Sentinel as he never engages with what's been written. Each new comment is the start of a new rant where he forgets everything which has been written before."

And some low-level affirmation argumentum ad hominem from the apprentice.

All very transparent caveats from very transparent people.

Like I said, I win every 'debate' hands down because the truth is on my side - and that is something you can neither counter nor handle.

And Ian, it is the other way around - the 'champagne socialists' are upset and throwing their toys out of the pram

Anonymous said...


You are like an angry child.

Like I said, no attempt to answer any of my questions, no attempt to engage with what I said just lots of childish insults such as mispelling 'Cockermouth', where I don't come from anyway, as 'cockinmouth'. Hilarious.

The Sentinel said...

And actually, yet again Duncan, the complete opposite of what you say is true.

(That is in fact an easy way of deciphering the true meaning of the statements of the morally and truth challenged exteme-left: Take what the personal commentary and reverse it. The extreme left are the ultimate reverse projectionists.)

I have answered ALL of you're questions, YOU haven't answered ANY of MINE!

So go on, the least you can do after yet another of you're typical bold statements:

"Where do this figure come from? It's another 'fact' made up by Sentinel."

accusing me of making up figures that your mentor and master published is redirect the accusation at Phil and accuse him of making them up or demand that he supplies his source.

I mean, you don't have double standards do you?

Anonymous said...

On Sentinel: Ban the fucker!

This is the blogosphere, not an outline of the ideal society. "No platforming" isn't a principle, but blog comments are meant for engagement, debate, etc. That is impossible with BNPers trolling about.

Phil said...

I couldn't give a shit about you, Sentinel. But clearly there's something Duncan and I have that's got right under your skin. After all, you don't find us turning up on BNP blogs begging for recognition from our hosts. What is it Sentinel? Love? Why does a white supremacist hang around an unremarkable mid-level lefty blog when he could be spending time with his (blow up) girlfriend? Are you that desperate for friends? Care to share?

Phil said...

I am tempted Anonymous. But then again, he does his party a great disservice every time he ventures any thought on any topic.

The Sentinel said...

Oh here we go again!

Yet another 'anonymous' into the mix - and just by chance, a couple of minutes before Phil posts yet more adolescent argumentum ad hominem - but I must say I am in agreement with 'anonymous' here: "blog comments are meant for engagement, debate, etc" - couldn't agree more. You wont see it around here though mate. Just more of the crap above.

And trust me Phil I couldn't give a shit about you either, and its just you're over-inflated ego again that makes you think that you're special. I comment on quite a few blogs, both left and right and some with nothing to do with politics at all.

But of course you don't try to engage on blogs and sites that disagree with you because you have no interest in engaging in real debate - you just seek mindless affirmation, and you know that neither you nor your ideas are up to the scrutiny.

Nope, when faced with real debate you have to resort to puerile insults, adolescent posturing and the old favourite: argumentum ad hominem.

But feel free to 'ban' me Phil, after all that's the nature of your ideological beast - the complete and ruthless suppression of dissent - and that's what all these argumentum ad hominem attempts at dehumanisation have been building up to.

Like I said all the way through, very, very transparent.

Phil said...

Typical evasion, question dodging and lack of engagement with the substantive issues. And for good measure you go in for a touch of projection too.

Another interesting aspect of your dysfunctional attention-seeking personality is the way you always must have the last word. You would rather dig yourself into the deepest darkest hole and make a complete fool of yourself then let someone else finish off a thread. Take this very post for example. I know you're going to reply to this and I can predict the phrases, protests and pretended innocence. And I also know that should I answer your subsequent contributions, whether it be argumentation, insults or just random lettering, you will be compelled to answer.

If that's not the sign of an ego maniac, I don't know what is.

The Sentinel said...

You really are a strange little man Phil, you really are.

"Typical evasion, question dodging and lack of engagement with the substantive issues."

What planet are you on?

My comment on the post was on topic, reasoned and contained five links to evidence my point!!

You're response was completely off topic and personal merely calling me a "politically illiterate moron."

My second comment addressed all of the other comments in detail and then you merely responded with yet another off-topic and personal insult: "Sentinel, every time you write you expose your stupidity to the world. You don't need me to assist you"

And then a series of other off topic purely argument ad hominem barbs such as:

"Praise be for The Sentinel! Long may the light of reason shine out his arse!"

"you are politically illiterate and have demonstrated so time and again"

"I'm disturbed by your rather unhealthy obsession with me. Is there something you're not telling us?"

"you are the most tedious self-important bore I've had the displeasure of meeting since becoming a blogger"

"I don't give a shit what you think"

You haven't managed one on topic comment!!!!!

And then you managed to work all the way up to the bizarre "blow up" doll insult!!!!!

Not content with that you then end with another bizarre rant about how you know me so well (and yet you worry about me?! - when you don't know me from a bar of soap, comrade) and that how my "dysfunctional attention-seeking personality" (more argument ad hominem) will be compelled to answer when of course you're litany of insults and patently bizarre commentary of events directly invites correction - and thus you think you can then feel smug about such an obvious, transparent self-fulfilling prophecy!

And apparently, despite you being the off topic, insulting, expletive using one here I somehow have to to claim "pretended innocence"?!!

Amazing. Crazy. Beyond reality. Marxist.

If that's not the sign of a complete arse, then I don't know what is.

(And of course Duncan now has to fall silent after accusing me of making up figures that you published!!! - priceless!!!)

Phil said...

TL;DR sad man!

The Sentinel said...


End of thread.

Phil said...


The Sentinel said...

TL;DR sad man!


End of thread.

Phil said...

You can't let it go. Carry on!

The Sentinel said...

Well, I just thought I'd give you what you want Phil. Massage you're ego a bit.

Sorry I couldn't work a blow up doll in here somewhere but I'm afriad I just can't tap into my adolescence the way you can.

End of thread!!

Phil said...

You just can't leave alone, can you? Why do you feel compelled to have the last word?

The Sentinel said...

Who, me?

Paul said...

What a superb debate. Well done chaps, as a neutral observer though it was a little heavy on insults and low on substance at times.

The Sentinel said...

Couldn't agree more.