Wednesday, 7 January 2009

Science and Islam

These days, religion and science aren't thought of as easy bedfellows, but as a new three-part series on BBC Four demonstrates, this hasn't always been the case. In Science and Islam, prof. Jim Al-Khalili demonstrates the intimate bond that once existed between the development of science and the rising power of Islam. And along the way he helpfully (if unwittingly) demolishes some myths that have grown up around Islam.

Between the 9th and the 12th centuries, the Islamic world experienced its own scientific enlightenment. By the time of Muhammad's death in 632, Islam had spread through conquest across the Arabian peninsula. By 750 it stretched from the Pyrenees to the Indus. In 762, Baghdad was founded as the capital of the empire on major trade routes running from east and west. It was also around this time that the empire began to rationalise its bureaucracy. According to Al-Khalili the way it tried to avoid the centrifugal forces nibbling at the extremities was by making Arabic the standard, official language. By coincidence, the intimate relationship between Arabic and the 
Qur'an made the language well-suited to its task.

One of the key instructions regarding the
Qur'an is that as the word of God, its text must be meticulously preserved. As a set of religious instructions it needed to be as clear as possible to avoid problems of misinterpretation and understanding. The injunction that each Qur'an be copied clearly, carefully and without changes made written Arabic a precise script. Therefore it was well suited for the language of imperial administration. But its adoption as the empire’s official tongue had the happy unintended effect of providing a common and precise language for its scattered scholastic communities. Administrative rationalisation allowed the geographically isolated savants of Islam to correspond without linguistic barriers getting in the way. As time passed these circles of correspondents circulated ideas and developed new discoveries and ways of thinking, wealthy patrons and the Caliph got involved for their own reasons, such that the Islamic world went through a renaissance of its own.

Medicine was a focus of much of this scientific activity. In the
Hadith, the collection of Muhammad’s sayings and deeds, he reportedly said “God did not send down disease without sending a cure”. There were then powerful religious reasons that made medicine a worthwhile scientific pursuit. The empire, bordering Europe and India and on the overland trade routes to China drew on the medical traditions of all three, as well as the herbalism that was (and to an extent, still is) the preserve of Arabic women. Islamic medicine also developed hospitals, introduced the pharmacy and developed tools and masks for surgery. It was also the first to make use of anatomical drawings as surgical aids. The synthesis of traditions and the new practices culminated in Ibn Sina's 1025 encyclopedia, The Canon of Medicine. This landmark work established principles such as diagnosis and cure, and formed the basis of medical knowledge that lasted until the early 19th century.

With the system of patronage, valuable discoveries were made in the course of meeting the ruler’s demands. One achievement of Islamic science, only recently acknowledged by modern scholarship, was its translation of Egyptian hieroglyphics into Arabic some 1,000 years prior to the discovery of the
Rosetta Stone. The historian, Ibin Washiyya managed this by realising that the Coptic alphabet, which as a living contemporary language could easily be translated into Arabic, was in fact a descendent of these hieroglyphs. Unfortunately the caliph who sponsored the project was disappointed. Egyptian tombs and stone carvings yielded no hoped-for magical and alchemical secrets.

Islam’s contribution to mathematics is probably its best-known contribution to science. From India Muslim scholars took the numbers system (which, as we saw, was then introduced into mediaeval Europe), and from ancient Greece came geometry. But they did more than just preserve these achievements. They built on them. The noted Persian scholar, al-Khwārizmī, combined the two and opened an entirely new continent of mathematics: algebra. It’s difficult to overstate the importance of this scholarship. At a stroke principles of abstract mathematical thought independent of numbers were established with innumerable applications. Equally crucial was the introduction of the decimal point to denote fractions of numbers.

By the end of
Science and Islam, Al-Kalili concluded that the great achievement of science’s relationship with Islam was confirming its independence as a mode of thought from religious and local/cultural traditions. Science wasn’t essentially Islamic. Neither was it essentially Indian, Greek or Chinese. It was a synthesis of all these sources. Without this synthesis and the discoveries Islamic scholars built upon it, the subsequent renaissance and enlightenment in Western Europe that came centuries later may never have happened, or at least proceeded at a much slower pace.

But importantly for today, the role Islam played in the history of science demonstrates it is no more barbaric or anti-intellectual than any other major religion. It conclusively disproves the euro-centric and racist contention that nothing of consequence happened outside of Europe that caused it to rise to global prominence from the 16th century onwards. In short, without the Arabic contributions to science modern Europe would look very different to the one we have today.

The next two episodes will be broadcast on BBC Four at 9pm on the 12th and 19th January.

19 comments:

gray said...

Hopefully, Danish TV will buy the rights to show what sounds like an interesting documentary!

I couldn't help but think of Morgan Freeman's character Azeem in "Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves." (I don't care what the Left thinks, I love this Hollywood blockbuster! lol)

Azeem is depicted as brave and also knowledgeable: he has a telescope (astronomy, optics); makes gunpowder (chemistry) and saves Little John's wife during childbirth (medicine). I wonder if a Muslim film figure with these qualities will appear anytime soon?

It is at least mainstream media rightfully acknowledging the Islamic world's contribution to science. I wish they could have kept "algebra" though; I hated it when I did Maths at Uni.

thinkingdifference said...

mathematics, medicine but also the preservation and discussion of Ancient Greek texts (like Aristotle).

Andrew Coates said...

All very fine (forgetting though the persectuion that non-confromuist Muslim philosophers faced as ferocious as that of the Inquisition - look what happened to Averros to start with).

Anyway, when late Mediaeval, early Renaissance, Europe became a centre for the first experimental (non-dogmatic) sciene, and there is was one would describe this as 'Christian science'. Though of course Friar Bacon was er, a Friar. And I believe Aristotle was not a Muslim. Or indeed a very good guide to science (think of his four causal types). Now was Newton a Scientist because he was a Christian or because he believed in astrology. Was he not proof that astology and alchemy engendered a wonderful scientific culture.

I though we'd got beyond such relativist pious sentiments towards religion of any type.

The Sentinel said...

A lot of this Islamic scientific contribution as 'original' is very debatable.

For instance, take Algebra.

You say:

"The noted Persian scholar, al-Khwārizmī, combined the two and opened an entirely new continent of mathematics: algebra."

Wheras Wikipedia (and others) say:

"While the word "algebra" comes from Arabic word (al-jabr , الجبر), its origins can be traced to the ancient Babylonians,[1] who developed an advanced arithmetical system with which they were able to do calculations in an algebraic fashion."

And you could find precedents to all other areas, because real human history is far from known, and far from accurate. There seems to have been many periods of advanced knowledge as evidenced by artefacts found and ancient products (just for instance, a map of Antarctica - even revealing the land mass under the ice - made 300 years before Antarctica's 'discovery.')

This ancient knowldge seems to have came and went over the ages.

Nothing of striking uniqueness in this period 'Islamic enlightenment.'

"It conclusively disproves the euro-centric and racist contention that nothing of consequence happened outside of Europe"

It does nothing of the sort. The world outside of European genealogy - the so-called 'western world' - is overwhelming a disastrous collection of corrupt, backward, violent, poverty stricken and disease-ridden hell holes, with the ones that are less so either have inherited 'western' systems and infrastructure, or have adopted them since.

And the backward nature of most Islamic countries is surely undeniable?

See how far your obsession for 'racism' and 'intolerance' is reciprocated in one these lands when you stray from the path; even in a relatively moderate state such as Egypt, the proposed building of a church in Cairo led to severe rioting recently.

And of course, we all know the wonderful benefits the mass influx of Islamic immigrants has brought to European countries - aside from terror and suicide bombings - a massive increase in rape, particularly gang rape, violent crime, and dangerous instability - a real fifth column.

In Scandinavia.

"The number of rape charges in Sweden has tripled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six - 6 - times as common today as they were a generation ago. Most other kinds of violent crime have rapidly increased, too. Instability is spreading to most urban and suburban areas.

According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges."

And in the UK:

""A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences

The trial came amid growing concern at the attitudes of some Asian men towards white girls which campaigners for women claim few people wish to address.
Parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist.

Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.

Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success..."

And in France:

"FLAMES lick around a burning car on a tiny telephone screen. Omar, 17, a veteran of France’s suburban riots, replayed the sequence with pride. “It was great. We did lots of them and then we went out and torched more the next day.”
Omar, whose parents immigrated from Mali, was savouring memories of the revolt that erupted 12 months ago from his home, the Chêne Pointu estate in Clichy-sous-Bois, in the eastern outskirts of Paris. “We’re ready for it again. In fact it hasn’t stopped,” he added.

Before next week’s anniversary of the Clichy riots, the violence and despair on the estates are again to the fore. Despite a promised renaissance, little has changed, and the lid could blow at any moment.

The figures are stark. An average of 112 cars a day have been torched across France so far this year and there have been 15 attacks a day on police and emergency services. Nearly 3,000 police officers have been injured in clashes this year. Officers have been badly injured in four ambushes in the Paris outskirts since September. Some police talk of open war with youths who are bent on more than vandalism."



Just three examples of the wonderful benefits of Islam and immigration.

IPsos said...

Very little of the claimed Islamic science was actually Islamic. Most of the people who are meant to be impressive Islamic savants were actually Jewish (if in Spain), or from the Zoroastrian tradition (if in Persia). Such intellectual progress as was made falls off roughly in proportion to the spread of Islam through these areas.

Cat said...

Great post Phil, but as for some of the comments - oh deary me, oh deary me. Racist, islamophobic, imperalist nonsense.

The first "national health hospitals" were set up in Arabia in the 9th century - muslims invented soap and used it for centuries before it caught on in the "west".

There is rarely an orginal idea but that is dialectics.

On the issue of rape I have to say what a load of bollocks! Such evidence is loaded - rape is generally a secretive crime the majority of victims never disclose - international research over and over again supports that as a woman you are more likely to be raped by a partner, an ex-partner or someone known to you.

I do not dismiss gang and group rapes and it appears to be more recorded phenonemeon and again do not dismiss alienated youth engaging in this horrific crime who may be first generation immigrants however I think the common denominator in rape is that they are men rather than their religion or their place of origin.

What would "The Sentinel's" pearls of wisdom be on that?

Looking forward to part 2 and 3

Red Maria said...

An elegantly written post to accompany a fascinating series, Phil, though I would, of course, quibble, ever so gently, with your opening line. Professor Neil Scolding, the late Professor John Henry and Professor Michał Heller are just thee who spring to mind disproving the notion that science is the property of the stubbornly Godless. I could also have mentioned Gregor Mendel. And they are just from my denomination.

Reading The Sentinel's comment reminds me just how painfully derivative Islamophobia is. Rape, violent crime and instability ... where have we heard this before? These are precisely the same charges which were levelled at Afro-Caribbeans not long ago. And the Nazis had a thing about Jewish men supposedly seducing innocent Aryan maidens too. There's a strong element of sex-anxiety in racism; the record never changes.

Cat has put up a stirling reasoned riposte to The Sentinel but frankly I think she's wasting her time. Racists are impervious to reason. They should just be sniggered at, hopeless unattractive involuntary-celibate losers that they are.

The Sentinel said...

Cat-

Well, the new buzzwords that end in 'ism' and 'phobia' are out in force again, along with the standard rubbish and excuses.

As for this new gem of "muslims invented soap" wikipedia has this to say:

"The earliest recorded evidence of the production of soap-like materials dates back to around 2800 BC in Ancient Babylon.[1] A formula for soap consisting of water, alkali and cassia oil was written on a Babylonian clay tablet around 2200 BC."

And to say "On the issue of rape I have to say what a load of bollocks! Such evidence is loaded" is complete bollocks - its all plain facts garnered form police statistics - and in the case of Sweden it had to be dragged out of them.

These are the facts:

"Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily...

The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin.

Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown...

Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year."

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

"Alarmed at last week's police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority, leading Muslim organisations have now formed an alliance to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls."

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

"According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects."

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab


Those are the cold hard facts.

Bizarrly, you feel the need to 'concede' that "I do not dismiss gang and group rapes and it appears to be more recorded phenonemeon" - given the dramatic rise of this 'new' crime, largely unheard of in the western world not too long back, I doubt very much you could dismiss it.

Instead you want to try and play meaningless semantic games - "however I think the common denominator in rape is that they are men rather than their religion or their place of origin" when clearly the common denominator is the vast majority of rapists (in Scandinavia) are immigrants - primarily muslims.

But given the Muslim 'community' leaders attitudes it is hardly surprising. Here is a small taste:

"An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen, Shahid Mehdi, has sparked political outcry from the left-wing Unity List and right-wing Danish People's Party, after stating in a televised interview that women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape."...

As a mufti, a jurist who interprets Islamic law, Shahi Mehdi is in a special position of authority as a Muslim scholar..."

http://www.cphpost.dk/component/search/Shahid%20Mehdi.html?ordering=newest&searchphrase=all&limit=20

"Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Muslim cleric currently on a controversial visit to Britain, believes that female rape victims should be punished if dressed "immodestly" when assaulted..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=MVLAPL2I50LTZQFIQMGSM5WAVCBQWJVC?

"CONTROVERSIAL Muslim leader Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali has savaged Australia in an interview on Egyptian television...

The interview, in Arabic, was about the furore he created last year with a Ramadan sermon in which he compared scantily clad women with "uncovered meat", suggesting that they were responsible for rape, called women Satan's messengers to deceive men, and said thieves often stole because they were pressured by greedy women."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/01/11/1168105116655.html

Which hardly surprising given the content of the Qur'ān.

Some muslims may interpret The Qur'ān in a moderate fashion and that is great. But it is a false interpretation.

The Clerics we hear branded as extremist are actually on the button when it comes to preaching the true message of Islam:

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush.

(Koran 9:5)

I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them.

(Koran 8:12)

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

(Koran 98:1-8)

(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.

(Koran 69:30-37)

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers.

(Koran 2: 98)


Well, quite.

And I notice you stayed well away from the state of civil war they have invoked in many area of Europe, with France and Sweden the most notable as yet.

This gives you the flavour:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=94Wyrxj7qvg


Red Maria,

"Reading The Sentinel's comment reminds me just how painfully derivative Islamophobia is. Rape, violent crime and instability ... where have we heard this before?"

Yip - from mass immigration.

All the charges I have levelled are documented facts.

You do not want to see it and so you resort political gibberish and groundless personal insults.

But the truth is, its a mess. A real mess. And as the problems grows increasingly larger each year, you will have to make more and more excuses, and rasie the bar on your gutter insults to try and hide the obvious from yourself and the rest of the disgusting Marxist do-gooders who have brought this situation upon so many.

"Racists are impervious to reason."

Don't make me laugh! You and your ilk are impervious to facts!

"They should just be sniggered at, hopeless unattractive involuntary-celibate losers that they are."

And female Marxist do-gooders who support this mess should be derided for the bitter dried-up old hags they are.

There we go - a bit of the gutter you so obviously like.

Cat said...

Oh dear! Don't think I will bother replying to The Sentinel because as a misogynist and a racist there really is not much to say that would make any difference.

I'm off to give my cauldron a stir.

The Sentinel said...

Yeah, well that's pretty much it isn't it.

Faced with facts, there is not much you can say, now is there. Unless you want to tip a bucket of filth over me.

Paul said...

I have to say that as someone who strongly disagrees with Phil on many things and yet follows this blog out of genuine interest and respect that the posts by Sentinel both shock and amuse me. On the one hand as he has repeatedly demonstrated he simply wipes the floor with the lot of you in a debate!

My personal issue however is that no matter which way we dress it up the BNP are racist. I dislike racism intensely although as Yasmin Alibhai- Brown amply demonstrates in the Independent, not all racists are white people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-spare-me-the-tears-over-the-white-working-class-1225824.html

Quite simply such an article would never get published if it contained the same stark generalisations about any group other than white working class people. Her vitriolic contempt sneers out every page she writes. Needless to say no one on this blog or its clique of camp followers would ever condemn such bigotry.

Anyway back on topic, I am utterly unequivocally opposed to racist, dead end politics of the sort espoused by the BNP. I mean seriously Sentinel what is your party’s position on inter-racial relationships for instance? Does the skin colour matter or should it matter to you or anyone when picking a sexual partner? I mean lowering the tone I know but would you seriously kick Beyonce out of bed? Whatever floats your boats, but isn’t not just unpleasant but plain silly to actually seek to tell people whether through law or culture whom they ought to seek sexual union with?


As to these rapes in Scandinavia I am quite willing to believe that some Muslim youths are responsible for seeking non-Muslim women to rape. Unfortunately there is a history of that and it has much to do with Islamic culture. By that I mean a culture which seems to suggest that Islamic women are afforded ‘protection’ by covering up. Once that mindset is entered into it is not hard to see how such individuals will view western non-Muslim women. Especially when their own clerics call such women ‘uncovered meat’ as in Australia. Of course the left and the usual PC sooth sayers will say nothing of this and that is to their detriment.

I am more than a bit disturbed to find myself agreeing with Sentinel on this sole issue; however I feel it is important and is a basic human rights issue. However not that a BNP government ever will come to pass but such a regime would trample on rights with all the enthusiasm that racist/fascist and leftist regimes always have. Thus it is ironic that on this page people representing Marxism (a failed idea that killed millions) are clashing with a fascist (another failed idea, and off-shot of Socialism that killed millions). That fact alone lends these web pages a certain irony as well as making for an unintended joy when reading them.

The Sentinel said...

Paul -

"I mean seriously Sentinel what is your party’s position on inter-racial relationships for instance?"

If the party you are referring to is the BNP, then I have stated quite a few times that I do not speak for that party and I am not responsable for their policy; nor do I necessarily agree with all BNP policies.

My own personal view is that the only solid foundation in a successful country is homogeneity. Something that the Nordic bloc had until recently and they topped every important and meaningful demographic statistic - highest longevity, lowest infant death rate; highest literacy, lowest crime rate , etc.

But in a very short space of time that has began to rapidly deteriorate - in line with its mass Third World immigration policies. Indeed, Portugal, once a world super power declined to Third World status within 100 years by absorbing just 10% of non-homogenous blood into its gene pool.

But the situation in European countries now has made that 10% figure pale in insignificance.

When you hear the protagonists for this policy stumble around trying to find excuses for its failure it would laughable were it not so serious:

""I was surprised at how widespread segregation was in Sweden," Persson added.

For example, the study shows that foreign-born school children lagged behind their Swedish-born counterparts, with students born in Africa falling far behind their native peers by 9th grade, even if they came to Sweden at a pre-school age.

"The differences in schooling, especially for Africans, shows how they are not eligible in the same way as other groups for upper secondary education, as they are not achieving the right grades, even though we take into account how long they have been in Sweden," said Persson.

"We don't really know why this is.”

http://www.thelocal.se/16452/20081218/

Amazing.

And quite why this buffon is "surprised at how widespread segregation was in Sweden" is amazing too.

Clearly he lives nowhere the 'multicultural' mess he advocates others should.

"Immigration to Sweden in 2006 reached its highest level since records began. At the same time emigration also soared to a level not seen in over 100 years, according to official figures published by Statistics Sweden."

http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=6412

Given an insight such as this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=94Wyrxj7qvg

it is not diffcult to work out why.

In 2006 Sweden absorbed 65,505 immigrants (not counting, obviously the illegals) into a tiny population of just 9,113,257. The immigration in 2006 was 47% higher then the year before.

At the same time, 44 908 Swedes emigrated, 18% more then the previous year.

(And we see the same in the UK too: In 2005, a whooping 565,000 immigrants arrived in Britain (or 1,500 a day) whilst 380,000 Britons (or 1,000 a day) emigrated.)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=260

Put quite simply we are being pushed out and outbreed and, unlike the disparate races flooding in, we have nowherel left to call home anymore.

A recipe for disaster.

So simply put, my view is that a homogenous nation for Europeans is needed and as such race-mixing would not emerge as a factor.


"I mean lowering the tone I know but would you seriously kick Beyonce out of bed?"

She would never be in my bed in the first place. I personally do not find her at all attractive.

But is interesting that the vast majority of the famous and popularly attractive blacks are invariably light skinned and / or of mixed race.


"but isn’t not just unpleasant but plain silly to actually seek to tell people whether through law or culture whom they ought to seek sexual union with?"

Not really.

In a homogenous nation there would be no such problems to face -and if one its citizens wanted to practise miscegenation outside the nation then they would be free to but not free to return with any offspring.

Phil BC said...

A bit late this, I know.

Paul, again, you shouldn't mistake an unwillingness with an inability to debate. Most here don't bother debating the Sentinel because 1) his arguments are beyond the pale for most who read an comment here and, 2) he is impervious to rational argument anyway. See here

You cannot debate someone who refuses to accept the rules of evidence!

Paul said...

Phil, yes I do understand what you are saying Re Sentinel and tend to agree. As to mistaking an unwillingness to debate, with an inability to do so? I guess you're referring to my much earlier comments Re Derek Wall. The fact remains Wall has never answered a single criticism on his blog he is not like you or I in that regard and the man posts unreferenced propaganda.

I do find it disturbing that people here will not discuss the issue of Islamic gang rapes. That is letting the victims down badly and it is a basic human rights issue. Being cynical if the gang raped victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white I bet the issue would have been raised instead of ignored. I am completely against creating different categories of victim due to some misguided sense of political correctness.

The Sentinel said...

Phil,

"Paul, again, you shouldn't mistake an unwillingness with an inability to debate."

That is just as untrue as all of the other bile you spout.

As Paul pointed out, I wipe the floor with you in any debate because, quite simply, I present the facts and the evidence as they are - without meaningless political detritus - 'dialectics' - warping their meaning.

Every time you and your little play mates make bold statements (certainly expecting no dissent) I refute it with evidence (like the whole Islamic algebra and soap rubbish) and every time you and your little play mates make what they pathetically believe to be some 'bitingly witty riposte', that again is torn down PDQ. (Such as the ethnic and religious make up of rapists in Scandinavia.)

And so we have silence.

Which is then, in lieu of substance, billed as 'moral silence'!!!

Even you yourself acknowledge this- that there is no integrity in the 'leftist' debate.

You and your little nest are only good for personal insults, extreme political contortions and ridiculous moral posturing.

You are unwilling to debate because you are have an inherent inability to debate - a fatal weakness in fact - the facts are just not on your side.


"his arguments are beyond the pale for most who read an comment"

i.e They do not give the required reinforcement to empty rhetoric and a failed ideology. They do not conform. They are not robot agreements.


"he is impervious to rational argument anyway."

That is probably the most amazing piece of hypocrisy I have ever read from you!

You are the one who absolutely bizarrely tries to deny that tangible physical - let alone scientifically proven - traits such as race and even sex exist!!!

(Even though your favourite words are 'racism' and 'sexism.')

A social construct, apparently!!!

When faced with this kind of lunacy, I try to debate rationally, against ideas that in normal society would be certifiable.

But I am glad you have linked to that very strange 'debate' - an impartial, fair-minded person can see what amazingly ludicrous arguments you construct to try to contort facts and justify and excuse tremendous evidence that contradicts your core ideology.


"You cannot debate someone who refuses to accept the rules of evidence!"

Yet again, astounding hypocrisy.

You are the one who tries to nullify evidence that does not suit!! Just for instance impartial police statistics for the ethnic makeup of rape and the impartial statistics of the ethnic make up of crime.

I really cannot decide which is worse - that you really believe your lunatic theories (in which race and sex do not exist) or you are just a malicious malcontent agitator using any suitable vehicle.


Paul,

"Phil, yes I do understand what you are saying Re Sentinel and tend to agree"

Which is rather odd given that one post back you said "he has repeatedly demonstrated he simply wipes the floor with the lot of you in a debate!"

Not very consistent.


"I do find it disturbing that people here will not discuss the issue of Islamic gang rapes"

Because they couldn't care less.

It does not fit the pre-moulded model; it does not confirm their bankrupt ideas. And as much they would like to dismiss it as a "social construct" or the like, it would be stretching credibility even for these deluded ranks.

But if the show was on the other foot - whites were the overwhelming perpetrators you could GUARANTEE that it would be trumpeted none stop.

You see, when 'racism' and 'racist' attacks fit the picture, race exists and so does the 'leftist' attention.


"That is letting the victims down badly and it is a basic human rights issue"

They care nothing about that and everything about politics.

If it doesn't fit it doesn't exist.

Phil BC said...

Sentinel, you remind me of the Westboro Baptist Church, you know, those people who picket the funerals of US military dead and make ludicrous homophobic attacks on the deceased. They interpret the outrage and hatred they stir up as evidence they've hit upon the truth. And so it is with you. Because almost everyone regards the ideas of white supremacists like yourself as the political equivalent of the flat earth society, why should leftists be bother? There's better things to be doing with our time. But if you want to spend hour after hour putting your opinion across on sites and blogs where no one will take them seriously, well, better that than you shoveling shit through the letter boxes of your Muslim neighbours I suppose.

The Sentinel said...

Well done Phil.

Yet again a load of evasive, nonsensical rubbish full of personal insults and completely devoid of any substance.

You deny race exists and you deny sex exists; in reality, you are closer to "those people who picket the funerals of US military dead and make ludicrous homophobic attacks on the deceased" in lunacy.

You say "There's better things to be doing with our time" - yet again just another variation on the "moral silence" when faced with facts.

You do not even know the difference between an isolationist to a supremacist.

And your parting sentence is just more surreal rubbish - just groundless, gratuitous ad hominem - neither do I have muslim neighbours (and neither would you know if I had) nor have I ever "shovelled shit" through anyone's letterbox.

Pure malicious ad hominem.

Because just like the very strange "people who picket the funerals of US military dead and make ludicrous homophobic attacks on the deceased" comparison, you invented it Phil.

You made it up.

It exists only in your sick mind.

Phil BC said...

If, Sentinel, you are an isolationist, then why have you quoted from Arthur Kemp's 'The March of the Titans' to support your arguments in the past? Why do you worry yourself about "diluting" the "purity" of the white race, if you don't think others are essentially inferior? Facts are white separatism and supremacism are two sides of the same racist coin. Let's face it, for whatever reason you hate and fear people with different coloured skin and beliefs - all the rest is just puff to justify your irrational fears.

As for denying sex and race exists, well, it just goes to show casting pearls before swine is a waste of time. When I debated at length with you at last I feared the argument was too subtle for. But that's your problem, not mine. Anyone not ideologically wedded to an essentialist view of race and gender can follow what I said.

If you want to pursue this further, and I'm sure you will seeing as you have latched on to this blog for some reason, I suggest we carry this on in the Obama thread, where I am about to reply to you.

The Sentinel said...

All very clever Phil, but first tell me:

Why did you feel you had to make up stories about me posting shit through the letterbox of my Muslim neighbours?

What purpose did that serve?

And given the fact that is not true and there is no conceivable way you would about even know if it were, what does this say about you?

Dishonest? Malicious? Deluded? Muppet?

You tell me.

And Phil I also quoted from the bible and I am not a Christian; the Koran and I am not a Muslim; Das Kapital and I am not a Marxist. You see where I am going with this? Or is it all to subtle for you?

'Yes, gender and race are socio-historical constructions used to describe people with different bodies' - a direct quote of your convoluted, contorted and surreal gibberish regarding race and sex.

I post comments in quite a few places Phil, and you should feel very privileged that you are one of the select.
But I can see how having someone post contradictory evidence on what is supposed be a closed mutual idea reinforcing exercise could be construed as 'latching.'