Saturday 23 January 2010

Stoke Protests Against the EDL

Since the English Defence League was formed last year, it was inevitable they would come to Stoke because of the pockets of significant support the BNP has built up in the city. While the EDL claim to be hitting the road to protest against the existence of extreme Islamism, in reality this is a pretext for footy hooligans to mix it up with asian youth and anti-fascists. The EDL's record of their visits to Luton, Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham and now Stoke can leave no doubt that peaceful protest is the last thing on their mind.

In Stoke the police shipped the majority of EDL (who came in on coaches) to Wetherspoons in Hanley from midday. Below is footage from inside the pub:

  This is not the first time Wetherspoons have played host to AND profited from an EDL outing (you can tell them what you think for making their outlets available to thugs here). According to Tony and Mike of local Stoke blog, Pits n Pots, the EDL's mood turned ugly very quickly. Several attempts by the EDL were made to break through police lines - presumably to reach the anti-fascist mobilisation around the corner. The irony of an avalanche of missiles pouring onto police lines while an EDL banner bearing the legend 'marching peacefully against extremist Islam' fluttered in the background was not lost on bemused locals. I was unable to estimate EDL numbers - the anti-fascist demo was only ever in line of sight with very small groups of EDL supporters. According to the BBC, there were 1,500 EDL in attendance - which is way above the numbers I heard on the day. According to two comrades who were mixed in with the EDL for a period, they had approximately 700 bodies on the streets/getting rat arsed in the pub. In all, the confrontation with the police and subsequent minor disturbances after the "demonstration" saw 15 EDL arrested for a variety of public order offences. There were also reports of scuffles *between* EDL'ers - hardly surprising considering their backbone is composed of rival footy firms with their own histories and animosities. By way of contrast, the anti-fascist demo, organised under the auspices of North Staffs Campaign Against Racism and Fascism, North Staffs TUC and Unite Against Fascism was entirely peaceful. As we assembled we were treated to speeches from local trade unionists, as well as UAF secretary Weyman Bennett. Weyman's speech probably stood out - not confining himself to the usual anti-fascist nostrums, he rightly argued that the likes of the EDL and BNP scapegoat Muslims, and yet it is the banks that have wreaked social devastation across Britain.  By the time we curled out of the North Staffs Afro-Caribbean Association and headed up the road to Hanley we had mobilised approximately 300 people. I marched near to Staffs Uni students' union president, Assed Baig, who was excellent on the loud hailer - it was a wonder he had a voice left to give a speech at the end of the rally! Once we fed into Albion Square the police formed cordons around the perimeter of the protest. Occasionally small groups of EDL would try and get through the lines while Weyman would taunt them from the platform. At one point three local BNP councillors reared their ugly heads and hurled abuse at us (I'm sure it was entirely coincidental these BNP'ers were in Hanley at the same time the EDL were spoiling for a ruck). I was pleasantly surprised and impressed with the UAF/SWP presence. Lessons have clearly been learned since the demo against the BNP about 18 months ago. The SWP presence was large but low key - there were no 'smash the BNP' placards and comparatively few paper sellers. Even though the UAF did more or less take over the protest (an inevitability really considering they're the ones with an apparatus, staff and money) they were much more sensitive to local concerns.  If there was one criticism I could make it was Weyman's frequent lapses into revolutionary inflation. Apparently we were bigger than the EDL - which certainly wasn't the case. And he often made the point that we had successfully "defended" the square from EDL "attacks" - a claim that writes out the 5-deep police line holding the EDL back round the corner and the two dozen plod around our protest's perimeter! Still, at least he provided some unintentional light relief. I'd estimate about half our crowd was local. The usual suspects were outnumbered by lots of - mainly young - new faces and it was especially good to see Staffs Uni turn out a respectable contingent. Assed Baig gets a lot of stick but his presidency has had a galvanising effect on what has been quite a passive student body (at least in the 15 years I've lived in Stoke).  Cynics may ask what the point of this protest was. We were never in a position to "stop" the EDL and it was obvious had the police not been there the EDL would have beaten us to a pulp, but nonetheless it was important we mobilised. In the first place it nails the lie - often used by the EDL and BNP - that violence is always the fault of counter-demonstrators. But they cannot attempt to make that argument after today's events. It was they who attempted to break through police lines towards our protest. In short, one objective NorSCARF set itself has been met - anti-fascism kept the moral high ground while the EDL discredited themselves in front of the Potteries' public and national television cameras. Second, there were more local black and asian people on the march than last year's. The EDL seeks to divide people along racial lines. At a modest level we demonstrated today that they have not done so. Plus images of our rally shows the EDL grunts only for itself - there are many white people in Stoke prepared to stand against Islamophobic scapegoating and racism. More info on the #edlsot and #uafsot Twitter hashtags. Also keep an eye on the PottEye blog - its contributors were also at today's demo. Local priest @frpeter has uploaded his Flickr stream, as has Pits n Pots here.


Highlander said...

I daresay the EDL will try to blame the counter-demo for at least something. Whether it be multi-cultural Britain, radical Islam or the price of fish cakes in Hong Kong. After all, nothing's ever their fault, is it? (and what's the score with Wetherspoons? are they that desperate for customers?)

Glad to see it did go off peacefully though Phil.

Phil said...

The EDL ought to contact Wetherspoons to inquire about a sponsorship deal. They're the hooligan's venue of choice!

One thing I neglected in the report above were the left group scores. So, for the spotters ...

Socialist Appeal - 3
Workers' Power - 2
Alliance for Workers' Liberty - 3
Socialist Party -15ish
Socialist Workers' Party - 30 plus
Respect - 4
SWP (USA) - 5!

Luna17 said...

I'm not even sure who or what 'SWP (USA)' refers to, so that's an intriguing one. On the more substantial issues, local activists should be congratulated on mobilising for this, but it clearly raises questions about the broader anti-fascist movement's strengths and weaknesses. A bigger EDL-supporting than anti-fascist turnout is very bad news, however you look at it. The fact is that the EDL's thugs remain confident about taking to the streets - they have not yet been cowed.

Mark P said...

By SWP (USA) he means the little British group in sympathy with the American SWP. That organisation is unconnected to the British SWP, it just shares the same name. The little British group is a splinter from the old IMG and I believe used to be called the Communist League. They may even still be called that. They don't have a paper of their own, but sell their American sister organisation's paper. Just to add to the confusion that's called the Militant.

Tony D said...

"Cynics may ask what the point of this protest was. We were never in a position to "stop" the EDL and it was obvious had the police not been there the EDL would have beaten us to a pulp, but nonetheless it was important we mobilised."

Yes, it was important 'we' (i.e. the antifascist movement) mobilised, but the 'point' of our mobilisations should be to outnumber the fascists & drive them off 'our' streets. The disappointingly small numbers on this demo suggest that the antifascist movement needs to seriously re-consider how it operates and builds...

Anonymous said...

Maybe you should get your facts right as it was a MINORITY which started the trouble in Stoke. A group was penned in and reports in show that they were provoked. One young lad was hit in the face by a police shield for no reason, photo's of the policeman and the blood on the shield are available on the net.

As for Wetherspoons well that was the polices idea, you tell me why they would want the EDL to congregate in a bar?

The sad fact is that the EDL are an excuse for idiots (minority) to have a piss up and punch up. The EDL are trying to weed them out and counter measures are being discussed for future demo's.

TRUE EDL supporters want PEACEFUL protests whether you want to believe it or not. Their forums were filled with loads of posts of those disgusted by the troublemakers last night and today.

As for the the BNP turning up, how the hell are the EDL supposed to stop them, just as they cannot stop the UAF infiltrators that are there on the day to give the EDL a bad name.

Tideswellman said...

Interesting Article and Interesting comment.

I was there, I have a lot of video footage as a pitsnpots reporter.

Regardless of who was to blame for the violence. Its is the EDL who have to take proactive steps to limit access to their demonstrations. Otherwise their reputation, and hope of being taken seriously will be destroyed before they actually get started

Anonymous said...

it makes me sick that the EDL are accused of just being footy thugs, yes mnay members support football teams but bassically who doesnt in this country.
because we are protesting about a view that can be seen as right of center then we will have right wing people from the bnp marching under our banner.
its a very sad fact that yesterday broke down into violence, but we came to stoke to march peacefully and bring our message to the people of this country.
we want 1 people 1 rule. not allowing muslim extremists a platform to sprout hate and recruit our young on some misguided jihad. we want children is schools to be treated as english/british children and not a small number being allowed to segregate and wear cutral clothing and we dont want sharia courts that are enequal in its treatment to parts of society just because of sex or sexual preference.
yesterday the police hemmed the EDL into a small area and refused to let us march. yet for some reason the UAF was allowed to march. how does that work?
the violence was caused by a very small number of people in the midst of the EDL supporters and a small number of over agressive police officers.

DisgustedOfTunbridgeWells said...

As for Wetherspoons well that was the polices idea, you tell me why they would want the EDL to congregate in a bar?

Out of interest, was it also the police's idea for the edl to congregate in the wetherspoons in wrexham, manchester and nottingham ?

Anonymous said...

he rightly argued that the likes of the EDL and BNP scapegoat Muslims, and yet it is the banks that have wreaked social devastation across Britain.


The EDL does not scapegoat Muslims, the EDL protests against the ongoing Islamification of Britain and Muslim terrorists, something which you simply don't seem to comprehend.

By all accounts the protest yesterday was a disaster for the EDL, simply because some elements of the protesters let themselves down, as can be the case when the UAF protests, there are always a few Commies in the bunch ready for a ruck.

One thing to point out that you missed. The UAF were given a lot more room to peacefully protest and so space wasn't an issue, the EDL were hemmed in by police who then proceeded to make as little room as possible for the EDL to protest.

Anonymous said...

The police often take football gangs to Weatherspoons in any town - the yobs are out of the way with "something" to do and the alcohol quiets them down provided the agressive phase can be contained. Weatherspoons is maybe better set up to deal with a large crowd than some small local pub. I do pity the staff in there though.

Anonymous said...

I'm EDL, the quran is no good for this country and neither is sharia
it operates here over my dead body
and im going to teach my kids the truth of it too so when im gone they can fight it just as hard as me..

what the EDL did was wrong
however it was provoked its plain to see those police lines were closing in on them so it was going to go off. our leaders know that using footy hooligans is wrong but every organisation has to start somewhere now were on the map were going to get rid of the firms and get the women children and pensioners in infact we want to appeal to the whole of britian
no sharia no quran no mosque's no problem. peace.

Anonymous said...

you think yesterday was bad?
close your eyes for a second, and imagine a civil war, it makes yesterday look like a kids birthday party... untill these legitamate concerns are dealt with the edl will only continue to grow. ban the edl and another organisation will be up and running in days. the answear to this problem is for all sides to be listened to, silence people and they will force there voice out, you know i feel sorry for anyone who was upset or hurt by the mindless violence of mainly teenagers yesterday, im a seasoned edl member, and i can say hand on heart the left organisations uaf and there ilk have wound people up, so have many in the asain community, when an asain tells an english man that this is pakiland now, you tube will prove this over and over, this is like a red rag to a bull. this is not "pakiland" this word i got from young asains on there youtube accounts plus many times i have seen the attitude of the asians, how about londinistan, or birminghamidad, not words made up by the english , these are derived from our collonisers, how loud do we the real brits have to shout befor people will hear us, our country is being collonised, our identity as british is beng lost, our apposers want communist rule, how much do you think we will put up with befor we react violently, it was ok for you labellers to take 1500 protesters to a little village in denby and cause havoc terrorising old folk, the way i see it is you thought you was in control with the bnp, for the bnp, as ive always seen, is senior citezens, easy to intimidate and lets have it right you have been doing a lot of that,but now you picked a fight with fighters and your under it, you want the public to back you now against us, but we are the public, there is so much history againt you country haters i could go on all week, ive watched and have in my possesion the way uaf and ilk spoke to edl members on these videos it is very clear the edl members were really trying to debate with the uaf, but it is even clearer the uaf and ilk refusing to listen and shout obcenities in their faces, i aint no judge but i find the uaf and ilk guity, tensions are running high, and if things dont get done they will reach fever pitch, there was many hundreds in that edl crowd yesterday, that were caring nomal folk of all backgrounds, im wittness to that, as far as the propergander is going around about numbers make no mistake there was a minimum of 1500 edl, does this not tell you there is a legitamate concern, you claim to be the educated and we the uneducated but you cant see the wood for the trees... this is for you traitors of this island, we was happy to accept forigners into our homeland, treat them with respect help them be kind to them, but it went to far and is getting worse by the minute, a blind person could see this, this is for you educated superiors of mine, from an uneducated man
the idiot thought themselves wise,but the wise ones knew they were not.. you see if it comes down to civil war what you gonna do hire a instead of keep winding us up maybe you want to spend some of your study time looking at the issues that have gave birth the the edl. maybe then you will start to understand we are not racist bigots and facist but normal folk who work clean ourselves, raise family, and hold this country together, for the record the reason the uaf and ilk didnt not cause any troble yesterday is as follows 1. you did not have the numbers to do it
2. you have been instructed by you leaders to cool it as for the last few years you have been causing havoc and the public have grown to dislike you. we might be uneducated but we aint stupid..had there been 3000 uaf there they would have pushed the police all there track record clearly shows..stoke edl 1 uaf 0

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Fuck me, these EDL posts of yours have really attracted the daft racists haven't they Phil? Fair play leaving them up here, it certainly offers some illuminating insight in the the dark recesses of their psyche and huge efforts they'll go to justify being daft racists scared of myths.

On the subject of Wetherspoon's, not sure what it is about those shitholes but they are a favourite of racists, it was a Wethrspoon's that the Sentinel offered to meet me in but of course, didn't show.

DisgustedOfTunbridgeWells said...

The police often take football gangs to Weatherspoons in any town - the yobs are out of the way with "something" to do and the alcohol quiets them down provided the agressive phase can be contained. Weatherspoons is maybe better set up to deal with a large crowd than some small local pub. I do pity the staff in there though.

That might be the case (and I'm willing to take your word for it) with standard firms but the edl and the sdl actively plan to meet at branches of wetherspoons in advance as evidenced here - "We will be meeting at the Piccadilli Wetherspoons pub next to Piccadilly Gardens" this has become such a known issue that Scottish anti fascists have asked wetherspoons about their policy on fascist thugs (notice the ring of state protection in the photo, alright for some, eh?).

FWIW, the founder of wetherspoons is a major funder of ukip.

The EDL does not scapegoat Muslims, the EDL protests against the ongoing Islamification of Britain and Muslim terrorists, something which you simply don't seem to comprehend.

Awwwwww, come on, don't be modest you're equal opportunities cunts aren't you -

Taken from 'edl media' as it's apparently called

Phil said...

Tony, it is a shame we couldn't bring bigger numbers in. These were for a couple of reasons:

1) I know some anti-fascists were put off attending because of the EDL's violent reputation. Furthermore asian "community leaders" and the president of Keele students' union told their respective communities to stay away.

2) Local hooligans were sure to turn out - Stoke weren't playing until today (the potters gave Arsenal a 3-1 kicking).

3) The EDL had a *national* mobilisation. Ours was very much regional - mostly from the WestMids, Manchester and EastMids. Precious few from elsewhere. Part of the problem is a section of the anti-fascist movement (broadly defined) eschew demonstrations and prefer leafleting instead.

I repeat again, if it wasn't for the police numbers alone meant anti-fascists would have had their heads kicked in. We can't let them out mobilise us again.

Phil said...

How many anonymous replies?

First anonymous, I know about the debates going on on the forums - they're hardly a secret. But there are several reasons why I take the official claims that the EDL wishes to protest peacefully with a pinch of salt.

First, the EDL's track record. Every mobilisation has ended with violence. Yesterday sections of the crowd tried to break through police lines. In Wetherspoons itself there was sporadic violence between rival firms (I suppose you're going to tell us that was provoked by the plod too). Where they faced no opposition in Luton thugs went on the rampage. Did the EDL condemn the violence? Nope.

Second, if the EDL were so concerned about peaceful protest why did they deliberately target Britannia Stadium last weekend, leaving thousands of leaflets under cars' windscreen wipers? Even the dullest of knuckle draggers know doing that would likely attract local thugs attached to the Naughty 40.

Third, Stoke's unofficial forums were chock full with macho chest beating and posts looking forward to mixing it with anti-fascists. If I knew about this, so did the EDL's organisers. You don't have to be a genius to see trouble of some sort was bound to happen. So, in the interest of peaceful protest why didn't the EDL reschedule or go in for a more peaceful kind of protest activity?

It did none of these things because the EDL is a thuggish organisation, beside the protestations of the naive and stupid you can find in its ranks.

Phil said...

Second anonymous, like all nationalists you sound like a whiny toddler throwing a temper tantrum.

The fact is you and your small-minded EDL friends are scared. You're scared of things you do not understand. You're scared because the world is a complicated place with no hard and fast certainties. And you're mostly scared because deep down you know bigots like you are on their way out. All normal folk want to do is rub along with each other as we have always done - such is the British way.

Phil said...

You're right 3rd anonymous, I cannot comprehend something that does not exist. How exactly is Britain undergoing "Islamification"?

Just think about it for a moment. According to the 2001 Census, there were just shy of 1.6million Muslims in Britain out of a population of 60 million. Read those figures again, 1.6 out of 60 million. That's about 2.5%. Does that sound like a religion poised to conquer the hearts and minds of the British public to you?

Get a grip.

Phil said...

Hey, 5th anonymous. Who are you to say who should worship what? Ever heard of those fundamental British values liberty and tolerance?

Phil said...

I agree Daniel. In this case case I've given them enough rope and the EDL supporters have gone and hung themselves with it.

James Larkin RFB said...

This is hilarious. The EDL stand in a long tradition of the English working class wrapped up in imperialistic bombast, jingoism, chauvinism and racism and the English/Brit left are an irrelevant collection of university lecturers and the public sector employed liberal middle class bleating on about all jolly well rubbing up together wtf does that mean? Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc Reap what you sow fuck the brit left and fuck their fascist working class.

Phil said...

NorSCARF statement:

NorSCARF have expressed their admiration for the restraint and bravery of all those who supported their Peace and Unity Vigil in Hanley today. NorSCARF particularly thanked Unite Against Fascism, both nationally and the West Midlands Region, for providing invaluable support with organising the event and publicity.

Supporters of the march were drawn from all ages, many different communities and a wide range of political opinion. While assembling at NorSACA, they were joined by Joan Walley, MP for Stoke North, and speakers addressing the crowd included Weyman Bennett of Unite Against Fascism, Stoke Councillor Zulfiqar Ali, Richard Sidley from the National Executive of the NASUWT, Ivan Hickman on behalf of the NUT, Assed Baig of Staffordshire University Students Union and the Conservative PPC for Stoke Central, Norsheen Bhatti.

“Knowing the violent reputation of the EDL, it was fantastic to see over 300 people prepared to stand with us in opposition to their violent, sectarian and divisive message, and in remembrance of where that kind of hatred and bitterness can end”

said NorSCARF spokesperson Harry Ward, he added:

“People have asked whether counter-demonstrations don’t just increase tensions, but we believe that had they not been directing their antagonism towards us, there is a real possibility that more of the EDL would have gone into areas like Shelton or Cobridge intent on intimidating the local people there. The EDL were fighting with the police long before our march came up into town. Today the people of Stoke-on-Trent have seen the EDL for what they are – a bunch of fascist thugs.”

Organisations represented at the vigil, included, Staffordshire and Keele Universities, North Staffs Trades Union Council, the teaching unions NASUWT and NUT, transport unions RMT, ASLEF and TSSA, the Fire Brigades Union, the CWU, Unison, the PCS, the Musicians' Union and Notts Stop the BNP.

Phil said...

Good grief, talk about going from one extreme to the other! Of course James Larkin RFB is no more capable of arguing his position than the dunderheads he takes as typical examples of British working class people - as his blank blog demonstrates.

DaveUK said...

@ UAF and especially Daniel Hoffmann-Gill: You have your heads so far up your own arses its unreal! People like you are a complete and utter disgrace and our country would be much better off without you!

I have noticed on the net how you go out to antagonise EDL members and get there backs up. All good and well and oh so safe hiding behind your computer screens. Just like at demo's how you hide behind the police and antagonise the EDL and incite violence to make them look bad.

Well I have news for you, your scruffy little organisation is on its way out while the EDL's numbers increase significantly by the day. People are fed up with the way this country is going and they are also seeing the far left for what they really are!

The lot of you literally make me sick and if anyone deserves to be subjected to shariah law its you!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...


Let me guess, you love the UK? But not enough to not by anonymous here, that's how much you care, hiding behind anonymity whilst taking pot shots and you dare talk of hiding behind computer screens?

Plenty times I've offered to meet up with racists to share views but they never have the guts to put their vile attitudes in direct and honest and pen debate.

You talk of my county being better off without me, which is never a good way to start a debate is it?

As for antagonising EDL members, where do you get this from? And by antagonising I think you mean offering reasoned and intelligent argument to myopic bigotry.

I'm getting the sense that everything is someone else fault, rather than the EDL Dave who loves the UK so much he is a coward and can't put his real name and email to his vomit.

Well I have news for you daft racist, the EDL (and how you can think that shitty clobber from Burton's and tight jeans with polo shirts and white trainers is not scruffy you tart, fuck me, it's like skinheads but without the style or sense of genuine nihilism) is below-par BNP and considering the BNP are a bastard joke, that set's you up nicely to reflect on what you really are.

"People are fed up with the way this country is going and they are also seeing the far left for what they really are!"

No they are not, you twonk, stop projecting your petty fears and ignorance on the rest of us, who actually are very happy thanks and van do without mindless bigots trying to smash up our cities with their vile attitudes.

Having said that, fuck up as many Wetherspoons as you want because they'll all shitholes.

"The lot of you literally make me sick"

What, you've never met us but our words have the power to make you, literally? God, you're thick Dave who loves the UK so much that in certain cases he would actually approve of Sharia Law even though no one in their right mind would, if it was only applied to people that the racist didn't like.

Read some books, man up and come back when you're educated enough to see how stupid your paper thin ideas are.

Anonymous said...

James Larkin RFB said...

"the English working class wrapped up in imperialistic bombast, jingoism, chauvinism and racism . . . fascist working class."

Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. By the way,what pigeon holes do you have for the Scottish Defense League and the Welsh Defense League? Would reactionary right-wing crofters and vicious fascist singing coal miners work for you? Anyway, think how your namesake would never have used petty nationalistic bigotry to divide the working class.

Anonymous said...

your a joke hoffman, correct me if im wrong but you actuallly show great dislike for a boozer, simply because the edl frequent it, your
hate must run deep for any bigger issues. dave from the uk is clearly not annon is it now, if we put an email address it could be attacked so why bother, is that not reason enough, but your interpretation is fear, far from it just sensible. you say you are not antagonising but "offering reasoned and intelligent argument to myopic bigotry" mmm and just a few lines down "well i have news for you daft racist" mmmmmmmmmmmm not quite what you said is it? you then go on to mock the clothing of and edl member, mmmmm reasoned nope, intelligent, ur nope,and your final answear to a concerned brit is to read some fucking books, well im asking you to show me the light here, fuck the books, you teach me, is it a myth ? that there is a global islamic movement on right now, to dominate the world with islam?, teach me, is it a myth that our infastructure is struggling to cope with millions of foriegners pouring into britain?, teach me. why do i get labelled racist or nazi because i am unhappy with the way my country has changed, if muslims h8 jews so much and want them wiped off the face of the earth, how come they dont get called nazi/fascist? teach me, earlier phil used some stats on muslims in the uk and said dont worry there is only a few by population, alot of my concern is for the life i will leave my children, for correct me if im wrong but the indiginous british population growth is equal to the death and white flight figures, meaning our growth has stabalised and is not growing, muslims in particular however, have a much higher birthrate, all this means one thing, if you want to use statistics then do a future forcast with it, for its my kids country im fighting for, what is your future forcast phil, for muslims in this country lets say 30 years from now? not to mention all the other races and creeds. like i said befor i have a genuine concern, i aint no nazi or fascist, and i certainly am not racist, so armed with a legitamate concern, to be called not nice names for that is antagonising. so acording to you hoff, to sum all this up, i read books yeah ok ill start right away, what do you recommend i read,? oh yeah and i must man up? so in your definition how you recommend we do that? reveal your darkside for me. what is your definition of being a man?

Phil said...

Another triumph of ignorance over knowledge from our anonymous EDL'er.

You say you have a legitimate concern - I point out the tiny number of Muslims in this country - and you come up with a load of guff that does not stand up to scrutiny for one second. According to this Daily Mail article (hardly a friend of Islam) says the EU-wide fertility rate for Muslims is 3.5. For non-Muslims it's 1.4. Let's assume this is the rate for Britain (bear in mind these are the figures per woman pre-menopause, not live births per woman per year).

For argument's sake, let's assume that period of fertility is 30 years long and begins from the last census, taken in 2001. In 2031, assuming each of the 750,000 Muslim women resident in women have given birth, there will be 2.63 million births, taking the total number of Muslims to just over 4 million. In the same period the 29.25 million non-Muslim women have given birth to 40.95 million babies. I think you can do the rest.

Another problem with the Muslim birth argument is it assumes Islam is a homogenous block. What about young people from Muslim (Pakistani and Banlgadeshi) backgrounds who live completely secular lives?

Simply put, the Muslim birth argument is a total red herring. Face it mate, you believe a pile of crap. So instead of blaming a small and powerless minority for this country's problems, isn't it time you placed your anger at the real source - big business, capital, and the ruling class.

Anonymous said...

approx 2 million muslims in britain today, we all know its more, anyway 1 million are women, with a birthrate of 3.5 id say that makes your 2 million muslims become 5.5 million lest we not forget this is over 30 years some of those will have made grandparents out of there parents, then you got the 300 thousand immigrants a year many of whom are muslim,lets says 10k are muslims entering uk a year, not forgetting the illigals pouring in by the day
so collectively its much higher than you tried to lead us to beleive,what this shows is that the muslim population IS growing, unlike the european population which according to the birthrate has stablised, hence it is clear to me, its only a matter of time before english welsh and scottish become a minority in there own country,not somebody elses country, our country, in tandem to this, is the side effect of all these muslims, its quite clear a percentage of them do not want to intergrate but to change the way this country works, muslim demographics is not a red herring, how dare you say that, for it was one of your own ilk that puts this evidence out there, almost certainly a book reader. plz do a YOU TUBE SEARCH FOR>> BRITAIN HAS 2 YEARS TO DEAL WITH THREAT, you will see an educated man/book reader goes by the name lord pearson, have a gander at what he said not many months ago, and come back to me, id like to see what you say. lastly there was a time when maybe there wasnt a single muslim living in britain look at it now, does that not speak for its self, if you got your heads out of those books you might actually get to see whats outside of the telling you, a million people DID NOT vote for the bnp becuase they like immigrants, and you know its gonna be a lot higher on election day, why is that, why are they voting bnp? everyone knows bnp policy, will you still say they are racist when there is 10 milllion voting for them , at what point do you hold your hands up and say you know what, maybe immigration has caused problems, maybe non intergrating muslims have cuased problems, always the indiginous person gets your wrath, have you got any negative points on immigration/islamisation. its not just muslims its a collection of bad people from all parts of the world coming to my land, for one reason only, not to work oh no, but to break laws, screw the system, cost the tax payer, this is england, you know i always say this if immigration didnt exist, for arguments sake, then we wouldnt have the problems we now have would we, so it was a bad idea to do this to a country, this argument is raging all over europe, the fors and the against, how do you go out of you house with so many white racist around, how you feel about us white racist i feel 100 times stronger about the immigrants, but seeing as you read books with hoff, you can tee off but i cant,.

Anonymous said...

phil i need to comment on your last section of your last post, you say the real source of our problems is big business ect and my anger should be directed at them, well obviously yours is, and although you say big buissness ruling elite ect, we are none the less talking about people, but do you see me calling you a heap of names because you dont like them, but for me, the one who dosnt read enough books and needs to become a man, well i get your labels for disaproving of something just like you, only something different. my concerns are legitamate untill you can convince me otherwise then i continue to fight. so there my point the book readers can dislike certain human beings for whatever reason but the non book readers cannot mmmm double standard there..if i tried to convince you to like those you described you wouldnt listen, you would no doubt say you have a legitamate reason to dislike them, pot kettle, knowledge can be found on every street corner, but wisdom is golden

Anonymous said...

It makes me laugh when the UAF crowd keep trying to describe the EDL as fascist and all that. The EDL are portesting against Islam, or so called radical Islam, and that's where the real facsism can be found.

Nazism and Fascism are totalitarian idelogies, so is Islam, Nazis burned books, so do Muslims (Satanic Verses, etc), Fascsism subordinates the feminine, so does Islam, Nazis had a pathological hatred for jews, so do many muslims (and many on the facscist left for that matter), the Nazis saw themselves as a special group - a kind of pure Aryan brotherhood - similarly, most muslims se themselves as a special group, an ummah.

I mean, I could go on and on pointing out the identical nature between fascism/Nazis and Islam/muslims, but it'd make no difference, you'll still carry on with your adolescent political posturing.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Snowed under with anonymous, coward racists aren't you Phil but you are nice putting their comments up, thus enabling them to be hung with their own words.

So deep breath and hold your noses as we wade neck deep into this racist bullshit...

Anonymous Racist Coward 1:

I think you'll find the only baad joke around here the need for racists to hide their opinions behind anonymity because they might get a dodgy email, whereas we all know the real reason is you're ashamed of putting your name to your views.

Which speaks volumes.

Also, Wetherspoons are shit, full stop but you must boycott them on Curry Night as that's a Muslim invention right?

And just to be clear, only an idiot could possibly think that putting the anon tag Dave UK to a comment would mean it is no longer anonymous, your excuses for your personal cowardice are see through.

You then ask for me to teach you, which thankfully, I don't need to do as Phil did it for me with your ridiculous Muslim red-herring. What are you so scared of you weakling, that you must band together with other racists and protests about Islam?

I despise all religion but I'm clearly braver than you when it comes to not being scared of poxy Islam, it holds no fear for me because I know it for what it is and am not sinking to the level of buying into terrible scaremongering racism.

And yes it is a myth that a)millions of people are coming here and b) our infrastructure is struggling, these are racist opinions you hold because you are a racist and a coward to boot SO, if you wish to bandy around such vacant lies, please do some backing up of your personal prejudice.

"i am unhappy with the way my country has changed"

What, for the better? Or is it that too many non-white folks are here? Christ, people said exactly the same thing as you about the Jews and about the Pakistanis and about the *insert racial group here* while missing the real target=POVERTY and the GAP between RICH and POOR.

Also, you talk about racist views held by SOME Muslims and then cry like a baby about it, of course, anyone who wants to wipe Jews off the Earth is a daft racist and as Phil points put you lump all Muslims together, I mean for America is full of millions of Christians that want us all to die in a terrible massacre and for all Jews to find Christ or burn in hell. Yes, they are idiots but not all Christians buy into that daft shit.

My definition, as you ask, of being a man is not being an ignorant twat who makes things up, you talk about the K left for your kids, you could make it a lot better by being a better human mate and to being so open to stupid ideas, myths and hate.

Anonymous Coward 2:

"approx 2 million muslims in britain today, we all know its more"

No we don't, you have a right to your opinion but not the facts you ignorant racist.

Your bad amths, in the face of Phil's real maths is just bizarre and shows you for what you are, even when confronted by the truth, your racist loathing of Muslims and the races they represent is exposed.

It is not about the truth, it is about you blaming someone for your own failures, fears and weakness.

You are so ignorant of the reality in this country it breaks my heart because you'll pass this terrible ignorance on, with no shred of evidence apart from: 'we all know...'

You mention the BNP you racist scumbag and the 1.6% of the K population that voted for them. Does that sound like massive bunch of ignorant racists? 1.6% of the UK population voted BNP, 1 million out of 61 million. That is not a movement, you guess it'll be more in the election but as with all of your nonsense, no evidence, just racism and ignorance.


The problem with you is coward racist, is that everything is a non-white problem, as if the UK, stripped of all the people that help make it great, would be okay. Rubbish but no point 'debating' that with a racist, blind to your own hate and ignorance.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Anonymous Coward 3:

There is a huge difference between having a problem with the structures of capitalism and the exploitation of the poor by the rich and the crass gap between rich and poor and the millions in poverty AND saying that all Muslims are evil and we are being snowed under with immigrants and blah blah blah I'm a daft racist.

This is typical nonsense from a racist, trying to make out that their bigotry about Islam is on a par with concerns about the impact of poverty on the UK, the real problem, always has been always will be.

"my concerns are legitamate untill you can convince me otherwise"

No they are not and you are not open to any level of convincing because you're a bigot.

And the fact you celebrate non-book reading you troll, good grief, anti-inteligence is always a marker of racist and fascists.

Anonymous Coward 4:

"The EDL are portesting against Islam, or so called radical Islam, and that's where the real facsism can be found."

So what you've done there is go: EDL is not fascist, I have no evidence(even though the imagery, language, attitudes, use of violence, nazi salutes and the appearance straight out of a bad Skinhead novel, giving a bad name to real skins) and guess what the real fascist are Muslims.

Can you not see how bad your logic is? Or lack of it, how you are merely name calling to deflect for the fact that the EDL is shit and full of daft racists?

"Nazism and Fascism are totalitarian idelogies, so is Islam"

Of here we go, this is bad maths at it's best! By your equation, Christianity and Judaism are also fascist?But I don't see you saying that. Everything is the muslims fault right?

What a joke.

Sorry to break it to you but Christians burn books too, does that make them Nazi, are all Christians Nazi? Do you see how you broad, sweeping generalised racism about Islam is so horribly ignorant?

Your knowledge of and confusion between National Socialism and Fascism (they are different things you tit) shows how poorly educated you are, no wonder you are so angry at the *insert type of immigrant here* because it can't be YOUR fault can it that you're life is so shit you have to join the EDL and be a racist?

"I mean, I could go on and on pointing out the identical nature between fascism/Nazis and Islam/muslims"

HA HA HA! This is hilarious, as pointed out you have no understanding of what the terms you use actually mean but by all means, squeeze your bigotry and lack of understanding into these definitions you have made up.


Unlike you, me and Phil put our names, locations and emails to our words because we aren't scared of being outed as racist because we don't have to hide our opinions and ideas away, you poor desperate, cowardly sods.

Phil said...

I've rejected a reply from our anonymous friend. He thinks homophobic insults are big and clever.

I think this thread has run its course. EDL supporters have exposed themselves as bigoted, deluded and willfully ignorant. Nothing else is served allowing them to use this blog as a platform for their foolishness.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I thought that might be the case Phil, eventually such threads become shouting in a room don't they?

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