Tuesday, 18 November 2008

BNP Members List Leaked!

Up until today I suppose BNP members were feeling quietly confident. Their conference in Blackpool last weekend certainly helped buoy up the party faithful, if comments on the official anodyne report is anything to go by. And in Boston last Thursday, the BNP won its first new councillor since the May elections, ending a dry run in what are still very favourable circumstances for the far right. So, if you were a BNP member, there were reasons to have a bit of a spring in your step. Until this morning.

Logging on to
Lancaster Unity earlier today, I saw the news that the BNP's entire membership list had been published online, in defiance of a court injunction. Unsurprisingly, despite the members list being up now for over 24 hours, it is only now the BNP have seen fit to comment on it.

In a news item billed as an 'urgent update' from Nick Griffin, he confirms the list's authenticity:

The vast majority of names and addresses on it [the membership list] are, however, from the November 2007 membership and skills list kept by a former head of administration of the party. This is the same list that was used to send via snail mail the bogus British Nationalist members’ bulletins last December and January. Detailed analysis by our membership department proves conclusively that the core list dates from between 30th November and 2nd December 2007. We have already sent formal demands to the web hosts to remove the list, pointing out to them that the fact that the publication of this year-old list constitutes Contempt of Court because a court order preventing its release or use was made and consented to by the group of disgraced former employees who first misappropriated it.
With an eye to several lapsed/resigned members remaining on the list, he adds "it is not normally our practice to either confirm or deny whether any individual is a member, in the case of any of those whose names have apparently been maliciously added to this list suffering any problems as a result we will gladly confirm their non-membership status." Thus in one stroke the fuhrer is able to write off the BNP's ludicrous over egging of the membership as the work of those nasty reds who have colluded in the release. 

Also, looking to any opportunity to fleece more money out of the more gullible BNP'ers, he says "we would recommend very strongly that anyone who believes this might become as issue for them joins the independent nationalist trade union Solidarity straight away. While leftist unions will turn their backs on - or even demand the persecution of - BNP members, Solidarity has already built up a great record of fighting and winning cases for its members." It would seem the BNP's "trade union" front has won a technical victory over moves to ban Adam Walker, the BNP supporting teacher who was sacked for using school computers for his fascist activities, from teaching, but it's going a bit far to say it has a "great record"!

Griffin goes on to predict that this is likely to benefit the BNP and afford it more publicity. Makes you wonder what planet he's on doesn't it?

It seems some fascists are aware of the gravity of the situation:

"There are some names on that list with an awful lot to lose who should have been (as expected) protected from this."

"Just glancing through one page, I noticed a couple of people who could find themselves having serious problems with their jobs, one a police officer the other said to work in a high position for a very left-wing council."

"This will run for quite a while. Anyone in the public sector should brace themselves for potential campaigns to out them and get them sacked or at least send to Coventry. Those members who were stupid enough to put business addresses should also be on guard for any protests etc."

Oh dear.

One would hope there's no hot heads out there stupid enough to "no platform" a BNP'er on their own doorstep, on account of this list, or bombard them with a barrage of hate mail. That would only play into the fascists' hands, especially as their propaganda tries to portray them as peace-loving patriots under attack by violently irrational anti-fascists. But this will certainly give many BNP members pause, particularly the softer layers, those who signed their children up under the family membership scheme and those whose employment could be jeopardised by being forced to come out of the closet. And there are those members who are furious that this could be leaked in the first place.

Griffin and his boneheaded lieutenants might think "crisis, what crisis?", but outside of the hardcore searching questions will be asked, criticisms raised, standing orders cancelled, and membership renewal requests going unfulfilled.

Just sit back and watch the fireworks.

Edited to add: If you're looking for the members list on Blogger, forget it. It was removed at some point overnight after the BNP lodged a complaint with Google. You might want to start looking elsewhere, such as Wikileaks.

110 comments:

Eddie T said...

My favourite so far has to be;
"Discretion required re. employment concerns Police officer".
A sacking offence in the police I believe.
Ah well, nae luck.

The Sentinel said...

It is a telling indictment of people of the dubious 'left' political bent that there is so much glee over the potential problems that this list may ostensibly create for members of a legal political party: politically motivated employment terminations, harassment and maybe, as has been suggested in many a place, much more sinister activities.

These actions are the very hallmark of tyranny and the antithesis of civilised, healthy countries. In essence, the actions of the so-called fascists that the 'left' so often invoke.

It is utterly irrelevant whether or not the 'left' agree with or even despise another's political beliefs or principles, to take such pleasure from the fact that potential repercussions may occur for the exercise of political freedom is to reveal the true malicious and anti-freedom position that the 'left' occupy in this country.

True fascists with red jackets.

Eddie T said...

Please, spare us the pretentious pseudo academic language.
The BNP are a party built on promoting hatred, division and racism at every opportunity.
They are barely house trained from their days as the boot boys who carried out assaults and intimidated the left and those who stood up to racist thugs.
They only allowed themselves to have their base racist impulses put on the leash because they calculated that they would get more support that way.
Let's face it, wrapping yourself in the swastika and celebrating Adolf Hitlers birthday don't come very high on the list of how to win friends and influence people.
The fact is that this leak of the membership list has come from within the BNP itself.
So ha fucking ha.
Not very Marxist I know but the phrase 'what goes around comes around' springs to mind.

The Sentinel said...

Like I said, its utterly irrelevant wether you agree with the politics or not, it is the malicious joy that you obviously get from the prospect of the political persecution of those with whom you do not agree that reveals your true nature and the sheer hypocrisy of that 'anti-fascism' pro-freedom live-and-let-live false flag that you shroud yourself in.

Ironically, I doubt very few in the BNP could really care less about this list and even less for the reaction of the malevolent, base circles that feast over such nonevents.

And incidentally, the language is plain English.

Enjoy your list of names.

It changes nothing.

It means nothing.

Phil BC said...

Will you be condemning the BNP for this, Sentinel? From Duncan's blog:

"Let's get a bit of perspective on this though and look at the BNP's record on 'freedom' and 'liberty' for teachers with unconventional political views.

BNP members have a notoriously bad ability to recall anything the party has done previously, anything objectionable they did before yesterday can safely be termed the bad old BNP that's now in the past, which might explain why the campaign around Adam Walker doesn't seem like total hypocrisy.

In 2004 two young members of the BNP, Joe Finnon and Diane Stoker, infiltrated the Manchester branch of the Socialist Workers Party uncovering a lot of information about the branch, its activities and individual members.

They were probably the source for the story in the May/June issue of the spectacularly misnamed 'Voice of Freedom', the BNP newspaper, which exposed the workplace of Manchester SWP activist and teacher Clive Searle. This same article then argued for him to be sacked for 'bringing the school into disrepute' through his political activities.

So, it seems some teachers can be sacked for their political views as long as they're not members of the BNP. This would be an infringement on their civil liberties.

Another neat reason why the complete hypocrites of the BNP have no right to talk to anyone about liberty or freedom."

Darren said...

"Ironically, I doubt very few in the BNP could really care less about this list and even less for the reaction of the malevolent, base circles that feast over such nonevents."

Not sure that qualifies as irony, imho.

And you obviously haven't been reading your fascists blogs. A few fascist commentators are defiant (anonymously. of course) but the majority fall into the categories of shock, anger, incredulity and shitting bricks.

PS - It was one of their own who leaked the list. The rest of us are looking on . . . and laughing. ;-)

ModernityBlog said...

Phil,

the list is available with a few searches and is probably now outside of British legal controls (hosted in the US)

this list is very useful and every Left organisation should compare its content against their own membership lists, etc

but the very idea that a fascist could infiltrate a Left organisation is strange and shows how de-politicised things have become, in the past few years, there was a time when the Left vrigously debate political issue in the open and any knuckle heads would be soon expose?

but you have to laugh, it is very funny and a real blow to the BNP

I can't really believe the pseudo-liberal whining that I am reading on SU blog, anti-fasciste everywhere should welcome anything that helps defeat or delay the rise of fascist parties such as the BNP

I laughed!

The Sentinel said...

Phil,

"Will you be condemning the BNP for this, Sentinel?..."

If that was sanctioned by the party, and I doubt very much it was, then of course.

These two individuals should be censured certainly.


"Another neat reason why the complete hypocrites of the BNP have no right to talk to anyone about liberty or freedom."

That is kind of the whole point. Who gets to decide who can talk about liberty and freedom, by restricting their right to such liberty and freedom in the name of liberty and freedom.



Darren,

"Not sure that qualifies as irony, imho."

Of course it does in context.


"And you obviously haven't been reading your fascists blogs."

And straight back to the standard word that you intolerant 'leftist' thugs love to bandy around without thought or understanding: Fascist.

What an absolute misnomer, historical anomaly and superb piece of hypocrisy from people cannot tolerate any dissension whatsoever from their own tyrannically enforced, deeply entrenched view.


"A few fascist commentators are defiant (anonymously. of course) but the majority fall into the categories of shock, anger, incredulity and shitting bricks."

This may come as a surprise to you, but the overwhelming majority of people do not put much weight on blogs or even bother with them at all. As you say, anonymous postings are the order of the day through this medium and it is very easy to assume another 'identity' in any case, so I take with a very large pinch of salt anything that comes through blogs.

But again, you have failed to see the shallowness of your 'facist'' propaganda- these people on the list are just ordinary, everyday folk - mums, family men, clergy, nurses, police, army, teachers doctors and represent a cross section of this country. Just ordinary folk worried about their country and exercising their right to do so.

If there is any concern it is largely for the youngster that may now face violence for that right.


"PS - It was one of their own who leaked the list. The rest of us are looking on . . . and laughing. ;-)"

Actually, it might well not be.



modernity,

"but you have to laugh, it is very funny and a real blow to the BNP"

Really, in what way? I think you know nothing about the British mentality - any persecution for membership of a legal political party, let alone any violence directed towards it members will not only strengthen the vast majority of the BNP's membership but will enrage the decent public at large; as it should.

Eddie Truman said...

Ha ha, the fascists are fighting like ferrets in a sack now about how such a thing could come to pass.
The master race ?
Arf arf

Darren said...

Sentinel,

"As you say, anonymous postings are the order of the day through this medium and it is very easy to assume another 'identity' in any case, so I take with a very large pinch of salt anything that comes through blogs."

Too true, but don't forget to include comments on blogs to your sweeping statement.

Reading your comment, for instance, it's self-evident that you know as much about my politics as you do about the correct use of irony (and BNP history and politics, for that matter.)

And all behind the nome de plume of 'sentinel'. How every convenient.

Have a good yin.

TEH SENTINAL said...

It is a telling indictment of people of the dubious 'left' political bent that there is so much glee over the potential problems that this list may ostensibly create for members of a legal political party

Whilst I mush admit to experiencing a certain degree of schadenfreude when this story broke on the chans yesterday, I feel most glee when thinking of all the Black, Asian, Muslim and LGBT people who are now less likely to encounter a police officer or teacher who is part of an openly racist, homophobic, islamophobic party which has an openly neo-Nazi leadership.

The Sentinel said...

darren,

Yet again, just gibberish from you.


teh sentinel,

But it is OK for whites to encounter police who are members of the National Black Police Association, or maybe the Black and Asian Police Association or people of other faiths to encounter police from the Association of Muslim Police, or for straight people, or maybe those with religious, political or moral objections to homosexuals to encounter police who are members of the Gay Police Association, police that have the right to intimatly search people and could obviously do so for personal gratification.

Its OK for the NUT to hold a black teachers conference; it is acceptable to have an organisation like the Parents of Black Children Association or even the Asian Parents Association.

In fact it is OK to organize along racial (or even sexual) lines for any other group then whites (and hetrosexuals) in any area of life in this country, my country, without the merest hint of a suggestion that this could be done for reasons other then wholly pure ones - not of course as a deliberately exclusive, elitist, divisive and self promoting entity, and naturally without any possible abuse or discrimination resulting from such singular and racist self division.

Wake and realise your hypocrisy.

Eddie Truman said...

Well there's a surprise, 'the sentinel' is a white supremacist.
Nae luck.

The Sentinel said...

Eddie Truman

Of course, ad hominem beats any rational argument.

If in doubt, if unable to explain, if unable to refute best just use good old one line ad hominem.

nae sense.

ModernityBlog said...

the BNP membership list is a good read tho', some very strange people

Master Race, my arse

the very idea of these dense fascists running around changing their phone numbers and email accounts is funny

oh my

Darren said...

Sentinel's pleading ignorance with regards to the history of the organisation he's trying to defend. A fool trying to pass himself off as a knave.

Sentinel, start with Tyndall's 'The Eleventh Hour' and work your way forwards for a history of the fascism of the BNP (and its antecendents.)

You're not waving, you're drowning.

The Sentinel said...

All very interesting and witty I am sure, but try explaining why a black or Asian organisation allowing membership solely on the basis of race is OK in our multicultural society.

Or why you are not out there with your placard during work hours protesting at the National Black Police Association and it's racist membership polices and promotion of all things black exclusively?

Your not just looking at hypocrisy, you are drowning in it.

Phil BC said...

Before one of us answers your question, Sentinel, stop and think for a moment. Why do organisations like the NBPA exist?

The Sentinel said...

I think the National Black Police Association exists in order to represent black police officers. Not white police officers. Not Asian police officers. Just black police officers.

Anonymous said...

The NBPA is a workers' association to protect officers from ethnic minorities themselves from racism in their workplace.
The BNP is a Party running for public office.

Quite a striking difference there.
But it doesn't stop here.

The NBPA offers membership to everyone involved in policing, only associate membership is offered to those that are not members of ethnic minority groups though. Maybe this measure is determined by the fact that many policemen are secretly and in contravention of their working agreement also members of groups like BNP that have a history of infiltrating their opposers for their own purposes that are different from those of the organisations they infiltrate.

The BNP Constitution on the other hand only allows membership to those that are "indigenous caucasian", it's a racial discrimination, and yet they run for office to represent all those within a constituency. And that is clearly an issue.

So, two different organisations, with two different aims and two very different measures of inclusiveness.
The NBPA is clearly a lobby group set up to improve one self-selecting group interests and yet has an inclusive membership, or at least as inclusive as wisdom allows, the BNP is a Party that discriminate along racial lines and yet has no problem is portraying its targets as racists even if those associations are a) more inclusive than they are and b) not a political party running for public office.

The Sentinel said...

Not entirely sure why you responded anonymously, but anyhow:


“The NBPA is a workers' association to protect officers from ethnic minorities themselves from racism in their workplace.”

This sentence is nonsensical and has no real underlying message.


“The BNP is a Party running for public office{…}Quite a striking difference there.”

Quite. The BNP are campaigning for elected power whereas the National Black Police Association are campaigning for the exclusive recruitment of ethnic officers and the elevation of existing ethnic officers into positions of unelected power.

People can choose whether or not to vote for the BNP, but they cannot choose who to vote into high police office.


“The NBPA offers membership to everyone involved in policing…”

This is obviously why they choose to call themselves the National Black Police Association, to illustrate their all encompassing welcome for all.

Likewise with the Association of Muslim Police, and the Gay Police Association and the multitude of regional variations and subsidiaries.


“only associate membership is offered to those that are not members of ethnic minority groups though”

So it is organized along racial lines then, clearly.

So, black = full membership, white = half membership


“many policemen are secretly and in contravention of their working agreement also members of groups like BNP…”

Whereas in reality, it would appear to be only one police officer.


“The BNP Constitution on the other hand only allows membership to those that are "indigenous Caucasian”..

Among others, the BNP has had a Sikh, a Jew and a Turk, a ‘half-caste’ as members.

And why is indigenous Caucasian in quotation marks?


“it's a racial discrimination…”

Whereas, of course when the National Black Police Association (NBPA) president Ali Dizaei said “I'm not ashamed in saying that we need positive discrimination..” and demanded that police be exclusively recruited from ethnic ‘minorities’ regardless of equivalent ability or aptitude that was not racial discrimination- it was positive discrimination- a much better kind of discrimination.

If we must have the National Black Police Association advocating discrimination against whites it cannot be racial discrimination, it can only be positive discrimination.


“So, two different organisations, with two different aims and two very different measures of inclusiveness.!”

Only really the primary essence of either is different.

And quite bizarrely, the aim of the National Black Police Association is not to promote the police at all, not even to its potential members.

““The Metropolitan Black Police Association will, as of today, totally boycott all recruitment drives initiated by the Metropolitan Police Service to attract black and ethnic minority recruits and police staff.
“We will actively discourage (through our extensive community network) potential applicants from applying to join the Metropolitan Police. We will take out a series of actions in the foreseeable future in support of our goal.”
Wonderful stuff, you couldn’t make it up.


“The NBPA is clearly a lobby group set up to improve one self-selecting group interests and yet has an inclusive membership, or at least as inclusive as wisdom allows…”

Yes, it only allows full membership to ethnic officers, anyone else is only a half-member.

And I wonder just how many non-ethnic members they really have.


And with the whole National Black Police Association being run by someone who very much appears to be a self-serving crook, Ali Dizaei, it has the feel of the “Italian-American Civil Rights League” set up by Joe Colombo, the New York mob boss, so many years ago.


Incidentally, I have just returned from India, where you will amazed to find that there is no equivalent police organisation as the National Black Police Association for the minority white officers there. Come to that I found there was no such organisation in the last place I went to, Egypt, or the place before that, Kenya, or even the place before that, China.

Why is that, I wonder?

max said...

And why is indigenous Caucasian in quotation marks?

Because that's what it is, a quotation from the BNP Constitution.

max said...

And as it is a stated nature of the BNP to be representative of only "indigenous caucasians" it means that it is a racist party and as such it is pretty rich for them to attack anybody else on the ground of being selective by ethnicity.

As said before the NBPA is a workers' association set up to combat prejusdice in their workplace, a workplace tht has a history of endemic racism so it is not in its remit to represent other people's interests' other then those of policemen and women of ethnic minority background. Despite this they allow membership to their association to all people involved with policing.

The BNP instead campaigns for public office, and public office comes with the duty of representation of the interests of all within a constituency and this is obviously incompatible with its own constitution that limits membership to "indigenous caucasians" and wants to represent only the interests of those people rather than the public at large.

Phil BC said...

You are hard work, Sentinel. Perhaps I ought to rephrase the question. Why do you think there are groups specifically for women, LGBT people, blacks, and asians? Why don't similar groups exist for straight people, men in general, and white people?

The Sentinel said...

max,

You have simply reiterated the very points I addressed above with no addition.

Quite clearly, if you consider the BNP as racist for their admittance policy then the so are National Black Police Association who have called themselves such to clearly demonstrate who they want as members.

Can other ethnic groups join? On paper, for appearances sake. Why would any other ethnic group, in all reality, join the Black Police Association? After all, non-blacks only get half-membership anyway.

Yes, the BNP are running for office, obviously, they are a political party and as such they are going to be political, whereas the polices are supposed to be neutral politically and have no business dividing themselves up into cliques and blocks and divisions along racial, religious, sexual and sexual orientation lines and politicising themselves, making demands as which races they want to see exclusively recruited, and then, quite bizarrely, very publicly undermining the very efforts they demanded by the organisation by which they purportedly belong to and are paid by.

The police in this country are in positions of unelected office because of the power they wield (the US recognises this with elections for officials in high police office) and as such cannot be at all political, whereas the BNP have ever right to espouse whatever political aim it wants.

And as I said, these equivalent organisations fail to exist in ANY African or Asian country I have been to, and I have been to many, why is that? Where is the same token for whites there?


phil,

When you cannot address any of the points raised I am sure that you will find me hard work.

But the fact is, everything I have written above is true. Including the spiv and quite possibly treasonous nature of the National Black Police Association president.

Why do these organisations exist except for straight white men?

Well despite the fact that this very group has allowed immigrants into their country wholesale and also allowed them and their offspring to occupy positions of incredible power over them in their country, as well as all the other groups outside their scope, I am sure you are going to tell me that it is because white heterosexual men are evil and prejudiced by nature and everyone else needs to form into groups to protect themselves from them.

max said...

So you refuse to condemn the BNP for not allowing membership to non "indigenous caucasians" and yet attack the NBPA for containing the word "black" in its name despite the fact that it's an organisation that wants to promote racial integration.

You claim that the word "black" gives a clear indication of the people they want.
But what advantage would membership to the NBPA give to its members since the Police is a white dominated establishment?
It looks like you haven't thought of this actually.

You know the truth?
The NBPA is a workers' association that wants to combat discrimination, the BNP is a political party that promotes discrimination and as such it is targeting the NBPA.

Straight White man do not need particular groupings to defend themselves, they are the traditionally dominant group of our society and this condition looks very secure for all foreseeable future.

There have been conquests of some rights made by various minority groups and because of this the BNP is claiming that white men are now prejudiced.

This is a risible claim. It's a culture of self-pity that borrowed the language of genuine minorities' fights for rights. It has no merit.
At best it's a complete waste of time and potential of life for all individuals involved.

Why aren't there minority groups' associations in those foreign countries you mention? Maybe because in those foreign countries there aren't significant numbers of minority ethnic policemen and women. Is this the answer you were looking for?
I can't understand that point really. Do you mean that we should take lessons in tolerance and equality from India or Egypt? No, maybe you mean something else. I can't genuinely understand what you want to say with that.

On police accountability. The police is accountable to the Government that is expression of general election.

The Sentinel said...

max,

"You claim that the word "black" gives a clear indication of the people they want.
But what advantage would membership to the NBPA give to its members since the Police is a white dominated establishment?{..}It looks like you haven't thought of this actually."

Its not really a claim is it now? It is perfectly obvious; just common sense - they call themselves the National Black Police Association because they want to be an exclusively black organisation, to exclusively promote the interests of the black people that comprise its membership - not to represent the interests of the police as a whole, or for the benefit of all their 'customers' the people that pay their wages - the public at large - just for the black members of their excusive black organisation.

It looks like you haven't thought of this actually.


"You know the truth?{..}The NBPA is a workers' association that wants to combat discrimination"

I am really not sure if you read the previous posts, or even have any idea of what this organisation does but combating discrimination is the complete opposite to its goals.

The National Black Police Association (NBPA) president Ali Dizaei said “I'm not ashamed in saying that we need positive discrimination..” and demanded that police be exclusively recruited from ethnic ‘minorities’ regardless of equivalent ability or aptitude.

The National Black Police Association is directly calling for racial discrimination not combating it.

But because they are only calling for discrimination against white, heterosexual men its OK - that can be positive right?

But pretty much, however you dress it up, discrimination is discrimination.


"Straight White man do not need particular groupings to defend themselves, they are the traditionally dominant group of our society and this condition looks very secure for all foreseeable future."

Hardly. We are being outbreed for just a start - with Birmingham, for instance, England's second city becoming majority ethnic already.

But like I said, your unique brand of contempt, prejudice and ultimately hatred is directed exclusively towards white heterosexual men, is it not?


"Why aren't there minority groups' associations in those foreign countries you mention? Maybe because in those foreign countries there aren't significant numbers of minority ethnic policemen and women..."

Well quite. And why not?


"On police accountability. The police is accountable to the Government that is expression of general election."

Are they really?

When, just for instance, the Metropolitan Black Police Association declared:

"The Metropolitan Black Police Association will, as of today, totally boycott all recruitment drives initiated by the Metropolitan Police Service to attract black and ethnic minority recruits and police staff.
“We will actively discourage (through our extensive community network) potential applicants from applying to join the Metropolitan Police. We will take out a series of actions in the foreseeable future in support of our goal.”

The Met Commissioner , various politicians of all flavours and the government condemned the Metropolitan Black Police Association for this unilaterally action - why? Because it was an autonomous decision by this exclusive black members only organisation that took them outside of not only the governments accountability, but their direct superiors.

They were accountable only to themselves.

max said...

Yes, your concluding sentence is right, the NBPA is accountable to itself, who else should they be accountable to? You?
Their actions are their choice, you can criticize them but you can't blame them for taking the decision that they think are the right ones for them.
They are not a police force, they are not a political party, they are a workers' association. Free association, free speech.
They perform independent scrutiny of the police performance on ethnic inclusion and their statement of recruitment was a dramatic yet effective way to highlight what they see as shortcomings of the police and government ways to deal with the lack of equality.

And so?
Your point is?
That you don't like what they say?
And so?

max said...

On positive discrimination.
It must be examined in its merits, if it can deliver a better balance of forces so to serve those communities in Britain that have a large ethnic minority component with a police force that reflects themselves then it may be a good thing.
It may be that forces so composed can outperform those traditionally recruited in those areas.
If there are better ways to achieve the overall objectives of the force then those better ways must be pursued.
I'm not in possession of the technical knowledge to decide what would be best.
I would nevertheless not base an opinion on emotional arguments claiming the imminent disappearance of the straight white man from the british isles.

By the way, you still failed to tell us what you think of the BNP's membership policy.

The Sentinel said...

"Yes, your concluding sentence is right.."

And pretty much the rest of it too.


"the NBPA is accountable to itself, who else should they be accountable to? You?.."

Yes, obviously.

I pay these people to do a duty- not just a job- in line with their oath and in direct subordination to the elected government; in return they have a warrant card and powers outside the normal civil remit.

That's how it works fella. That's how its always worked.


"Their actions are their choice, you can criticise them but you can't blame them for taking the decision that they think are the right ones for them."

You really live in another dimension.

Their actions are not their choice. They are sworn police officers, not Tesco shelf stackers. They have a duty and a legal obligation to follow a very rigid chain of command and adhere to very rigid rules and regulations, not make arbitrary policy decisions and public statements at will

And you really think I cannot blame them for demanding that I be directly discriminated against if I were to wish to join the police force of my own country? You are mad.


"And so?
Your point is?
That you don't like what they say?
And so?"

And so I pay them to perform a duty for which they are sworn. Not to spend their time thinking up ways of excluding me from the police force or derailing campaigns or displaying complete contempt and insubordination that would be tolerated from no others.


"On positive discrimination{...}It must be examined in its merits"

Really man, where are you?

A post ago you told me that "You know the truth? The NBPA is a workers' association that wants to combat discrimination..." and now not only do you completely brush over the fact that not only do they not combat discrimination they actually call for it (and the fact that you were wrong) but you also now advocate the merits of racial discrimination (as long as its only against whites, oh and only heterosexual white men of course) - truly astounding and an absolutely amazing display of duplicity, confusion hypocrisy or all three.


"By the way, you still failed to tell us what you think of the BNP's membership policy."

Go on, have a stab in the dark...

max said...

Do you really think that being a member of the NBPA is a job?
Then why do you want more white policemen to join in, so that there's nobody left to do the policing?

And the positive discrimination. There are good reasons but hey, you must be able to do some reasoning about it to get it and if you play with words to avoid reasoning then it will always be impossible.
If in an area there's a lot of people from one ethnic group then having enough policemen from that group makes sense, and if you can't recruit enough of them then maybe making a targeted recruitment may be a good idea.
This is a completely different discrimination from discriminating against people you don't like.

On the BNP membership policy, let me try... you know it's very sad but hey, you can't run the risk of thinking about it, let alone be able to justify it, and I don't mean to me, to yourself.

The Sentinel said...

Yet again, you haven't addressed a single point that that you have raised and I have subsequently answered. Not a single addition or a logical extension.

Literally, we are going around in circles with this.

max said...

I'm sorry, I have children of my own and can't play with you anymore.

I feel a bit cheated of having wasted so much of my time bue hey, how do you know ahead that you're speaking with one that can't/won't think and that hasn't even got the balls to say that he's a racist out loud.

Experiment failed.

The Sentinel said...

What the hell are you on about now?

You just keep repeating yourself, contradicting yourself and quite frankly, embarrassing yourself.

I would stop now too if I were you.

max said...

http://tinyurl.com/6ys6r7

The Sentinel said...

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

max said...

Why this mindless self loathing?
You just linked to a paper that warns against centralized power with ambitions for social engineering and concludes that therefore we must foster liberal democracy!

It's hilarious.

Your party, the BNP, wants power to implement social engineering and hates liberals and hates democracy.
Think sometimes!

Or better, either think or leave the BNP as the two are clearly incompatible.

The Sentinel said...

Your grip on reality is very, very fragile isn't it?

It details the well over 100,000,000 people murdered by the practitioners and proponents of your belief system.

Not only the greatest mass murderers in history, not just the greatest tyranny ever imposed upon mankind but also the most abject failure of an idea in history too.

Well done, keep on believing.

max said...

Proponents of what belief system? Mine? And what would that be?

The Sentinel said...

Oh come on, you are not going to deny your beliefs now are you, just over a small matter of mass murder and abject failure?

max said...

Are you making a parody of Senator McCarthy?

The Sentinel said...

No, not really.

Arthur Bough said...

The publication of the list has raised a number of questions about whether BNP members should be sacked, especially from jobs such as the police, teaching etc.

My view is that we should not call on the bosses state to do the work that the working class must do for itself. But it raises a lot of related questions about how Marxists relate to the State as I set out here .

The Sentinel said...

Very generous of you not to call for the illegal political persecution of law-abiding people who are members of a legal political party in a 'democratic' country.

Phil BC said...

Ah, you mean law abiding people like these folks. How about this fine upstanding citizen? And don't forget this chap.

The Sentinel said...

I am really not sure what you think you have achieved or proved with this; all you have managed to do is show that two member's out of over 12,500 are no good (because the other two you link to are not members and are not on the leaked list.)

Did you really expect the BNP to carry out exhaustive police and background checks on each membership applicant? Or maybe employ psychics to predict if a member will turnout to be no good after membership is granted?

Do you think other parties do this- carry out even the most rudimentary check?

The so-called mainstream parties, let alone your extremist strains, have many members in various states of law transgression form arrest to imprisonment. (The latest serious one was Ian Oakley, a Tory candidate who pleaded guilty of harassment of his opponent.)

And casting stones from your camp is laughable with the amount of deranged and malicious thugs that flock to your banner in the name of 'diversity.'

The fact is, whether you like or not, that the vast majority of people on that list are ordinary, law-abiding citizens who are concerned about their country and their children's future within it, and are merely exercising their right to political membership, opinion and activity.

Indeed, many of these members have put their life where their mouth is and served this countries Armed Forces (as have I) to ensure that that freedom is available to all - something that is glaringly missing from the vast majority of the left and their activists.

In the main, the left abuse all and sundry whom they disagree with using the freedom they have to do so, as secured by people willingly to risk their lives to secure that freedom, without actually contributing to the continuance of that freedom themselves. In fact they often like nothing better then to abuse the very people that provide that freedom for them in the first place.

In any case, as previously stated, the BNP are law-abiding people who are members of a legal political party in a 'democratic' country and have the legal right, let alone the moral right, not to face illegal political persecution for their opinions and memberships, or abuse and violence from their detractors.

Phil BC said...

Sentinel, I can produce a list if you like. True, the majority of BNP members may not have criminal convictions, but don't you find it interesting how your "law abiding" party manages to attract violent thugs and would-be terrorists?

As for the rest of your rant, I won't bother to reply to you. As I found out last time we crossed swords discussion is completely pointless with you. If evidence contradicts your racist view of the world, you write it off as politically correct propaganda and some such nonsense. So I doubt you would find any discussion of the sociological composition illuminating, simply because it will not fit your prejudices.

The Sentinel said...

That’s right; the overwhelming majority do not have any criminal convictions because they are, as I have said, law abiding citizens.

You can produce a list of a few who aren’t? Well done.

Also as I have said, do you really expect the BNP to carry out exhaustive checks on applicants? Because certainly no the party does.

As for violent thugs and terrorists, do you really think that the ranks of the SWP and the likes do not swell with these? And believe I have seen the unwashed performing and smelt their bad breath up close, observing the frenzied hate in their beady eyes.

And I just the love the hypocrisy and choice of ad hominem labels that ‘leftist’s’ like yourself employ when unable to rationally counter reasonable statements – hence my factually correct observation about the lamentable lack of ‘leftist’s’ willing to risk their life in order to protect and preserve the freedom they use (and abuse) to attack all others with whom they disagree - has to be a ‘rant’, whereas, in fact it is just a perfectly reasonable and logical observation.

And following that same line of hypocrisy and ad hominem, debate with you was completely pointless; as the record will show, I countered with tangible and credible evidence every position you put forward.

Whereas you dropped into full Marxist overdrive invoking ideological nonsense such as race being a “socio-historical construction” when faced with historical, scientific and other factual evidence.

Even when it was proved for instance, through official police figures, that Norway’s rape rate had increased dramatically increased in a short period of time and that the increase was shown to have a breakdown of two-thirds of non-white perpetrators behind it, you desperately questioned the criteria of the police numbers.

All the other evidence you didn’t want to face you wrote off as propaganda simply because it did not fit in with your prejudices.

Anyhow, back to the main point, one you keep trying to escape, the BNP- in the overwhelming majority- are law-abiding people who are members of a legal political party in a 'democratic' country and have the legal right, let alone the moral right, not to face illegal political persecution for their opinions and memberships, or abuse and violence from their detractors.

Do you not agree?

And incidentally, the biggest tyranny this world ahs seen along with the biggest mass murderers possessing the most demonstrable failure of an idea was orchestrated by believers of your ideology.

Indeed, historically, it is inextricably linked to oppression, torture, murder and abject failure.

Phil BC said...

Good grief, do you always cut and paste part of your answers? Here's a hint when you're having a discussion with someone - you're supposed to be engaging with them, not boring them to tears!

As for thugs on the far left, sure, I suppose there are a few who would relish the opportunity to give hate-filled fascists and racists a taste of their own medicine. But I defy you to identify in the course of a quick google search a list of SWP members guilty of violent assault or racist offences. Now compare that with your "law abiding" party. There is a big difference.

Second, as for our previous debate, sure, it's up to others to judge whose arguments were in the right. But I'm pretty confident my arguments were correct, seeing as they are founded on peer reviewed historical and social scientific scholarship and genetic science, whereas yours were based on naive readings of statistics, conspiraloonery and the discredited racist bollocks of Arthur Kemp.

Third, I see since we last debated you have discovered a new stick to beat the left with - the idea that socialism is responsible for the biggest mass murders in history. Yawn, do try and be original!

Phil BC said...

I can't let your claim about the army pass without comment.

I am acquainted with four or five ex-services personnel who are active in Stoke on the left, the anti-fascist movement, and what's left of the local labour movement. Furthermore when I used to attend SWP branch meetings in Derby over 12 years ago there were two ex-soldiers who were members - one who saw action in WWII and then in Greece after the war, and another who had done time in the army before becoming a miner. Doesn't really fit the picture of the left you have in your head, does it?

Second, if you really think your deployment overseas in active theatres like Iraq and Afghanistan (assuming you served there) is about "bringing freedom", you're more of a naive fool than I thought.

max said...

I know a socialist that's a veteran of the D-day.
It was the first time he fought the nazists. Little he knew that 60 years later he'll be still doing it, just on the homefront.

ModernityBlog said...

in answer to The Sentinel's point of "do you really expect the BNP to carry out exhaustive checks on applicants?"

NO, instead just follow the tattoos:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/5122/461198182140281/227/z/197630/gse_multipart27765.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/5122/461198182140281/227/z/391077/gse_multipart30473.jpg

that's Mick Holmes, one time bodyguard to Nick Griffin and Ex-Lincs BNP Organiser

you'll see that Holmes's upper body is positively covered with Nazi symbols, swastikas, etc

Holmes's chest has HITLER plastered across it in 3 inch high letter.

The Sentinel said...

"I suppose there are a few who would relish the opportunity to give hate-filled fascists and racists a taste of their own medicine"

Or just call up and threaten old ladies in the middle of the night because they happen to be on a list?

So, what you are saying is that they are valiant thugs? Thugs of the left are so much more dignified then thugs of the right?


"But I defy you to identify in the course of a quick google search a list of SWP members guilty of violent assault.."

As you well know, the media saves all of its vitriol for the right, but this came up top on my one and only search.

http://www.labourhome.org/story/2007/7/8/123021/7362

But I have seen their thuggery first hand.

Only when in great numbers though, naturally.


"Now compare that with your "law abiding" party. There is a big difference."

You have named two people out of 12,500 and believe me, the rags that pass for papers have trawled through that list in intimate details and checked every name.

The other two you mentioned were not members of the BNP; you just read something adverse and wanted to believe they were.

How many other things do you accept as truth without knowing?


"whereas yours were based on naive readings of statistics, conspiraloonery and the discredited racist bollocks of Arthur Kemp..."

Not even close. Sourced from the BBC, the Norwegian police, the UK Government and so on... As you well know.


"..the idea that socialism is responsible for the biggest mass murders in history. Yawn, do try and be original!"

I'm find it interesting that you find over 100 million murdered by your ideological brothers so amusing.

Over 100 million murdered and you think it shouldn't be mentioned?


"one who saw action in WWII and then in Greece after the war.."

Your talking about conscripts and National Servicemen.

People who had no choice, not willing volunteers.

In all the years I served and since, I have failed to meet any one of your ilk, in or ex-service.


"Second, if you really think your deployment overseas in active theatres like Iraq and Afghanistan (assuming you served there) is about "bringing freedom", you're more of a naive fool than I thought."

Not that its any of your business but I spent a lot of my time engaged in EOD in my lengthy service, defusing bombs in places like NI and both bombs and mines in places like Bosnia as well service in Rwanda and many, many others.

I saved a lot of lives doing this, and often times it was done without the knowledge of the civilian populace so they may continue about their lives without fear of terrorists, and so ultimately providing them with freedom.

But the main point is that Britain's armed forces stand ready to take on anyone who would try to deny Britain freedom.


Max,

Same again; these were no volunteers but conscripts and you insult them by comparing the BNP, a legal political party to the 1944 German army.

Besides I know (or more in the main now, knew) plenty of veterans of WWII who didn't expect to fight a war only to see their country destroyed from inside by traitors and foreigners.

And incidentally, despite all of the rubbish about WWII being about fighting Nazis etc. it was about maintaining the traditional 'balance of power in Europe' policy that Britain advocated.

Britain went to war to protect Poland's sovereignty and after five and eight months of war completely failed in its aim because Poland was illegally occupied and tyrannised by Socialists for half a century.

The war was a failure.


modernunity,

"that's Mick Holmes, one time bodyguard to Nick Griffin and Ex-Lincs BNP Organiser..."

Neither of those links are active by the way, but as you point out, the Nazi tattoo's are on the chest (and shoulders) and would not be seen unless he was ordered to take off his shirt (not a BNP policy but probably a regular occurrence over at the SWP.)

The rest of the tattoos on display are neutral

And now no longer a BNP member in any case, so what is your point?

ModernityBlog said...

"The rest of the tattoos on display are neutral"

well, having HITLER tattooed across your chest might be "neutral" if you're a member of the BNP but for the rest of us, it isn't

not forgetting Mick Holmes has a SS Deathhead, various SS insignia, a Nazi eagle banner, numerous swastikas, Nazi Celtic crosses and below the 15 inch swastikas, there is a quote from Hitler "From the grave my spirit...."

I am sure that wouldn't cause too many problems amongst BNP and their fellow travelers, but then again that's why they are fascists

max said...

Sentinel, you're insulting everybody's intelligence.

max said...

"Same again; these were no volunteers but conscripts and you insult them by comparing the BNP, a legal political party to the 1944 German army."

Exactly, many Germans were conscripts, you are a volunteer in a racist organisation.

"And incidentally, despite all of the rubbish about WWII being about fighting Nazis etc. it was about maintaining the traditional 'balance of power in Europe' policy that Britain advocated."

People didn't fight for bullshit! They fought they fucking Nazi, the scum of the earth!

The Sentinel said...

modernunity,

"well, having HITLER tattooed across your chest might be "neutral" if you're a member of the BNP but for the rest of us, it isn't"

Are you really that dense? It was under his shirt- NOT VISIBLE.

All the tattoo's that were VISIBLE were NEUTRAL.

HE IS NO LONGER A MEMBER, NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BNP.

Does this make it any easier for you?


Max,

You don't appear to have much intelligence to insult now do you?

Have a little look into why world war two started mate (although really this should have been explained to you when you were around 7) and you will discover to your amazement that it was because of the 'European balance of power' policy that the UK traditionally followed and that the declaration of war was about reversing the annexation of Poland by Germany; Nothing to do with political oppositions or Nazi's- if the Germans had withdrawn the declaration of war would have voided.

In any event, Germany didn't withdraw, so war ensued and eventually the USSR illegally occupied Poland and tyrannised it for 50 years.

Hence, the objective of the war from Britain's perspective, to ensure Polish sovereignty, was a complete failure.

I cannot believe that you need this explaining to you.

As for the "racist organisation" rubbish - it is anti-immigration, so if any idiotic, incorrect and emotionally inspired labels need placing, and quite clearly you feel they do, the most apt would be xenophobic.

But the word 'racist' does nothing for me in any case. It just used by hysterical dictators like yourself to shut down debate and scare people into silence.


"They fought they fucking Nazi, the scum of the earth!"

And I guess this is the height of intelligence isn't it?

Well, for you anyway.

And considering the 100m + people murdered by the communists (including the 30,000 Polish officers at Katyn) where does this place them on your scum of the earth scale?

Phil BC said...

I note, Sentinel, you pass over the fact I knew a SWP member who was in the army before he became a miner. He must be in his early fifties now and is, as far as I know, still active in socialist politics. I know a couple of local firefighters, ex-forces, who are active in the labour movement. Then there is a local victimised shop steward who was targeted by management for the crime of daring to stand up for his members. Ex-army. There's more but there's no need to labour the point. But I will say they do the labour movement credit - it's a pity you can't be like them, instead of spending your time blaming the powerless for Britain's problems.

The reason why you haven't met any current of ex-service personnel of our "ilk" is simply because you do not mix in labour movement circles. It's like saying you don't believe people from Micronesia exist because you haven't met any.

Regards you record, in my opinion you should rightfully be proud of the work you did. But do you think you and your comrades were sent to these places to "save lives"? You seem to be aware Britain entered the second world war because its interests were threatened, but when it comes to the deployments you were involved in it was all about freedom. How to square that circle, hmmm?

As for the rest of your gibberish - because that's what it is - you really are hard work. It appears to me you've taken figures from work that took place 15 years ago, and just assumed it to be the truth. Which, of course, just shows you up to be the naive fool you are. On every issue you choose to debate you betray the signature of the intellectual dilettante - bits and pieces culled from Wikipedia here, a smattering of google searches there, but only in as far as it confirms your prejudices! If you weren't so shallow, then you would be aware contemporary scholarship on the numbers killed by Stalinism put the numbers very much lower, an argument even conservative commentators on the subject accept.

You would also be aware that most socialists are not interested in minimising the crimes of Stalinism, as even a cursory read of the overwhelming majority of leftist blogs will tell you. Why? Because, now this might be difficult for you to understand, Marxists were among the fiercest opponents of Stalin and his kind. Which, of course, was why the Trots were the first up against the wall when Stalin assumed absolute power, when Mao's armies and Ho Chi Minh's forces marched into Chinese and Vietnamese cities. It would be nice if you could acquaint yourself with history instead of wearing your ignorance like a badge.

One question I'd like you to answer is why you accept these regimes to be socialist. Was it because they said so? They also claimed to be democratic, and yet you reject that claim. On what grounds?

The Sentinel said...

“The reason why you haven't met any current of ex-service personnel of our "ilk" is simply because you do not mix in labour movement circles. It's like saying you don't believe people from Micronesia exist because you haven't met any.”

Well that’s not true at all because I mix in service and ex-service circles that are not divided along political lines.



“But I will say they do the labour movement credit - it's a pity you can't be like them, instead of spending your time blaming the powerless for Britain's problems.”

If you knew anything about the nationalist movement you’d know that it is the government we blame for this complete debacle of a country, and the mechanisms of greed that fuel this debacle. And that these systems are our primary targets.

But I can and do blame the actions of the immigrants and their offspring who act with wanton disregard for the law, decency and the British way of life.

Crime, particularly violent crime, is endemic in every area where is there is a large concentration of any ethnic group- and don’t give me that poverty crap because I was brought up in amongst it all and continue to live amongst it all and these people have had equal, if not greater, opportunity then the rest of us and have just as much, if not more, access to ‘social security’ pay outs.

The murderers of the 28 youths stabbed to death so far in London this year invariably wore expensive clothes and trainers, as did the victims. It was a primeval ethnic gang instinct at play here; as it is with their US cousins and everywhere else they have settled.

And before you bother to make excuses for this behavior – tell me, why is there no equivalent statistic for indigenous kids?



“But do you think you and your comrades were sent to these places to "save lives"?”

In the main, of course not. But soldiers go where they are sent.

Bosnia for instance was a very strange setup. The US were flying ‘foreign fighters’ aka as mujahedeen (and now ‘Al Qaeda’) in from Iran with the assistance, amongst others, of Osama Bin Laden. The US seemed to be deliberately stoking the flames of civil war.

Another thing I can tell you first hand is that the atrocities carried in out in Bosnia were by no means one-sided. By no means at all. Not something that ever really got broadcast.

The US via the CIA were also heavily involved in drugs as a means of financing the conflict and continued that association through to the KLA; there were even rumors, with some evidence, that the Albanian gangsters were contributing to Clinton’s election fund. But ultimately the real reason behind it all is unclear.

Regardless of this though, we did manage to secure freedom for many people; even if for most it was just the freedom to live.


“It appears to me you've taken figures from work that took place 15 years ago, and just assumed it to be the truth. Which, of course, just shows you up to be the naive fool you are”

If you are referring to the figures in the previous debate, they were all contemporary.



“On every issue you choose to debate you betray the signature of the intellectual dilettante - bits and pieces culled from Wikipedia here, a smattering of google searches there, but only in as far as it confirms your prejudices!”

Obviously that is the way you see it; of course I see supporting evidence.


“If you weren't so shallow, then you would be aware contemporary scholarship on the numbers killed by Stalinism put the numbers very much lower, an argument even conservative commentators on the subject accept.”

That figure was for the collective murders committed by socialist / communists etc etc

But does it really matter if it was ‘only’ 90 million people that were murdered or ‘only’ 70 million people that were murdered?

The fact is that a hell of a lot of people were murdered having your ideas imposed upon them, and they proved unworkable ideas anyhow.

And why should people have such a dramatic idea imposed upon them anyway – we are not just talking about a few policies here but an entire way of life by which complete conformity can only be achieved through force.


“Why? Because, now this might be difficult for you to understand, Marxists were among the fiercest opponents of Stalin and his kind.”

That’s another issue with your ilk; the many faces of what are ultimately the same ideology. Stalin loved nothing better then churning out Marxist literature along the lines of Dialectical and Historical Materialism.

Aside from the Islamic variety, almost every terrorist organization in recent history were / are Marxist; from the IRA to Eta to the KLA and PPK through to the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Red Brigades to Farc – to name a few.

A hell of a lot of blood and suffering for your ideas.



“One question I'd like you to answer is why you accept these regimes to be socialist. Was it because they said so? They also claimed to be democratic, and yet you reject that claim. On what grounds?”

Well, actually the Nazis claimed to be socialists as well did they not? National Socialists.

THE USSR was supposedly a union of socialist republics enroute to communism etc etc

Either ways, whether you disagree with particular strain of idea they followed or the route they choose to implement it, there can be no doubt that they genuinely believed in Marxism and adhered to what they saw as its true message.

They were trying to impose your ideal.

Anonymous said...

How many people in world history were killed in the name of nationalism and/or christianity then if we are to play a numbers game? A damn sight more than 70/90 million!!

To link Stalins crimes or the crimes of nutty individual terror groups to Marxism is desperate to say the least. Many crimes have been committed in the name of an ideaology but in truth are down to criminals in positions of power. I would argue that Nazi Germany was a clear example of an ideaology that practised what it preached and that was mass murder.

The Sentinel said...

No matter how you dress it up, smooth over it or dance around it the simple fact is that Marxists, their administrations and their terrorist organisations have proved to be the biggest torturers, tyrants, and mass murderers in history, as well as being complete and utter failures.

Face it - that is what the implementation of your idiotic and anti-freedom ideas always lead to.

Ashamed of your background?

Gri££in's Banker said...

No matter how you dress it up, smooth over it or dance around it the simple fact is that Fascists, their administrations and their terrorist organisations have proved to be the biggest torturers, tyrants, and mass murderers in history, as well as being complete and utter failures.

Face it - that is what the implementation of your idiotic and White racial supremacy ideas always lead to.

Hate anyone who is not of your background?

The Sentinel said...

100 million + people murdered by Marxists.

The most prolific and bloody mass murderers in history - you have no moral high ground and nothing to say.

You ideas are as useless as they are homicidal.

max said...

It's a very comfortable blanket that of anti-communism, anytime somebody tries to address any point you don't like to hear or talk about then you start with this anti-communist nonsense and how Stalin...what a bore!

Gri££in's Banker said...

100 million + people murdered by Race obsessed Fascists like you, "The Sentinal".

The most prolific and bloody mass murderers in history - you have no moral high ground and nothing to say.

Your ideas are as useless as they are homicidal.

The Sentinel said...

I'm sure it is 'a bore' to have such a glaring reminder of the murderous failure of your ideology and the fact that, despite your frantic attempts to paint others with labels, you and your ilk are the biggest 'fascists' of all - completely intolerant of any dissent.

The ideology to which you adhere can only be brought about by brutal force - as it has each time around the world with the various regimes - and can only be maintained by brutal force because it is an entire way of life and system that is even more pervasive then religion and cannot allow any detractors.

It is not simply a policy or two - it is the systematic conversion of human life, thought and behaviour towards one single viewpiont.

One that has failed numerous times.

And Stalin was just but one of the murderous Marxist's that have reigned over the very unfortunate; there are many terrorist groups that aspire to your mutual ideology too and are open enough to acknowledge that intimidation and violence are the only way to realise it.

At least admit that you are intolerant of all those are who do not follow your warped thinking and that if you were ever able to achieve power here (and some of your 'ex'-colleagues are already in government) you would enforce your vision of life upon the populace ruthlessly, punishing and 're-educating' any opposers at the very least and would use every force available to smash any signs of public reaction to the unwarranted intrusion into their lives.

Because history tells us that is exactly what you would do.

Incidentally, you have failed to answer where in your 'scum of the earth' league the Marxist murderers of tens of millions fo people come?

The Sentinel said...

And isn't it ironic that you complain "anytime somebody tries to address any point you don't like to hear or talk about then you start with this anti-communist nonsense and how Stalin" when your entire 'leftist' movement employs exactly those techniques with nationalist and the inevitable shouts of "racists" and "Nazi's"?

Gri££in's Banker said...

The Sentinel,I'm sure it is 'a bore' to have such a glaring reminder of the murderous failure of your ideology and the fact that, despite your frantic attempts to paint others with labels, you and your ilk are the biggest 'fascists' of all - completely intolerant of anyone who isn't white.

The ideology to which you adhere can only be brought about by brutal force - as it has each time around the world with the various regimes - and can only be maintained by brutal force because it is an entire way of life and system that is even more pervasive then religion and cannot allow any detractors.

It is not simply a policy or two - it is the systematic conversion of human life, thought and behaviour towards one single white supremasict viewpiont.

One that has failed numerous times.

Hitler was just but one of the murderous Fascists that have reigned over the very unfortunate; there are many terrorist groups that aspire to your mutual ideology too and are open enough to acknowledge that intimidation and violence are the only way to realise it.

At least admit that you are intolerant of all those are who do not follow your warped White Racial Supremacy and eugenics way thinking and that if you were ever able to achieve power here (and some of your 'ex'-colleagues are already in government) you would enforce your vision of life upon the populace ruthlessly, punishing any Black or Asian at the very least and would use every force available to smash any signs of public reaction to the unwarranted intrusion into their lives.

Because history tells us that is exactly what you would do.

Incidentally, you have failed to answer where in your 'scum of the earth' league the Fascist murderers of tens of millions fo people come?

max said...

You know what's ironic?

That the BNP's program is a delusional inapplicable undesirable fantasy.

You must raise to the challenge of debating why you go around communities that are trying to live together positively telling them a pack of lies designed to create division along racial lines.
How can you complain about being called racist if your party's Constitution states that membership is only allowed to "indigenous caucasian"?
How ironic is it to complain about that?

Say something for yourself! To keep on saying that Stalin only gives the impression that you can't justify your ideology.

The Sentinel said...

"You know what's ironic?"

Yes, the fact that you complain about the very techniques you use.

And as for the rest of the well-worn nonsense - we have been around this already - you seem to have the memory and attention span of a fruit fly.

Remember the National Black Police Association (as well as the Black and Asian Police, the Association of Muslim Police or the Gay Police Association etc) who's membership is set along racial (and sexual) lines and who create divisions along racial (and sexual) lines and actively advocate racial discrimination (even though you thought they combated it) and then you found out they didn't combat it you went onto to say was OK for THEM to advocate / use racial discrimination - because they are black?

In fact that whole line of warped logic on your part is a study in irony.

And as for the "communities that are trying to live together" rubbish - like our harmonious friends of 7/7 and quite possibly of the Mumbai terror attackers?

Or maybe you are referring to the black and asian "communities that are trying to live together" who exploded into racial violence in Birmingham in this countries last race riot - none of which had anything to do with the "evil whites." Not even heterosexual male ones.

And aside all of that, you are the one who keeps mentioning Stalin.

In fact I only mentioned him when one of your fellow marxists did.

Do you think Stalin was the only Marxist mass murderer?

Gri££in's Banker said...

Yes, The Sentinel, the fact that you complain about the very techniques YOU use.

And as for the rest of the well-worn nonsense - we have been around this already - you seem to have the memory and attention span of a fruit fly.

Remember the British National Party (as well as the National Front, Combat 18) who's membership is set along racial (and sexual) lines and who create divisions along racial (and sexual) lines and actively advocate racial discrimination and then you point fingers at others as a distraction tactic to say it is OK for THEM to advocate/use racial discrimination - because they are indigenous whites?

In fact that whole line of warped racial supremacy and eugenics logic on your part is a study in irony.

There are many communities that are trying to live together and I am sure your not so small minded as to put the actions of a few on to the many? That sounds a little like prejudgement in regards to someones ethnic background, I know your not like that, oh wait...

Or maybe you are referring to the Black, White and Asian communities that are trying to live together in places like Leicester who live side by side and treat each other with deserved respect.

And aside all of that, you are the one who keeps mentioning Stalin.

In fact you constantly mention him, it's the first thing you eugenics obsessed racial supremacists do.

Do you think Hitler was the only Fascist mass murderer?

The Sentinel said...

"Gri££in's Banker" you are just a very strange individual with a cut and paste mania and a distinct lack of comprehension - well done, you do your movement proud.

The Sentinel said...

And by the way, Hitler was a socialist too.

Gri££in's Banker said...

The Sentinel, you are just a very strange individual TOO, who ALSO has a cut and paste mania and a distinct lack of comprehension - well done, you do your movement proud.
By the way, Hitler was a White Supremacist too!

max said...

Sentinel, unlike what you understood I still think that the NBPA is an outlet that fights discrimination, please read up what I wrote already, I'm not going to re-write it.

My harmonious community is the place I call home, we're all different and we get along very well together.
Communities where shit happens are those where shit-stirrers hang around.

The Sentinel said...

"I still think that the NBPA is an outlet that fights discrimination"

No, they actively advocate racial discrimination as you well know


"My harmonious community is the place I call home, we're all different and we get along very well together..."

Is that nonethncismalltown you are referring? Because it is not any major city here.


"Communities where shit happens are those where shit-stirrers hang around."

Like I said the last race riot in this country, that left people dead by the way, was between blacks and asians in Birmingham.

Why? Because they don't get along; they distrust each and they hate each other.

One small (non) incident was all it took to spark the bloody violence.

No whites involved at all.

Welcome to reality.

max said...

On NBPA, if you can't be asked to re-read what's been said I can help you with a copy and paste of my own statement:
"the NBPA is a workers' association set up to combat prejusdice in their workplace, a workplace tht has a history of endemic racism so it is not in its remit to represent other people's interests' other then those of policemen and women of ethnic minority background. Despite this they allow membership to their association to all people involved with policing.

The BNP instead campaigns for public office, and public office comes with the duty of representation of the interests of all within a constituency and this is obviously incompatible with its own constitution that limits membership to "indigenous caucasians" and wants to represent only the interests of those people rather than the public at large."

Later I reinforced this and wrote:
"The NBPA is a workers' association that wants to combat discrimination, the BNP is a political party that promotes discrimination and as such it is targeting the NBPA."

How have you understood that I believe the opposite is beyond me but I'm not surprised though.

About Birmingham, the riots were still provoked by racist shit-stirrers, I didn't say they were white, they were black on that occasion.
I hope you'll be pleased that I don't discriminate between racists of any colour.

On your last question, the small town where different people live very well together is called London, maybe you've heard of it.

Rob Gardner said...

Max, you do understand "The Sentinel" doesn't want to believe that people of different backgrounds and races can get along quite fine, it contradicts his whole mentality and reason for being.
I have lived in Wolverhampton all my life and found it easy to get along with many different people, be it School, friendship, work and relationships but "The Sentinel" doesn't want to hear that, it doesn't fit his racist agenda!

max said...

I know, that's why I believe that above else BNP membership is a medical certificate and we must be patient with them.

The Sentinel said...

You obviously have no idea what the hell is being said here - The National Black Police Association do not combat discrimination they call for it we have been through this and I have refuted all of this before:

"The BNP are campaigning for elected power whereas the National Black Police Association are campaigning for the exclusive recruitment of ethnic officers and the elevation of existing ethnic officers into positions of unelected power.

They call themselves the National Black Police Association because they want to be an exclusively black organisation, to exclusively promote the interests of the black people that comprise its membership - not to represent the interests of the police as a whole, or for the benefit of all their 'customers' the people that pay their wages - the public at large - just for the black members of their excusive black organisation.

Black = full membership, white = half membership

People can choose whether or not to vote for the BNP, but they cannot choose who to vote into high police office.

The police in this country are in positions of unelected office because of the power they wield (the US recognises this with elections for officials in high police office) and as such cannot be at all political, whereas the BNP have ever right to espouse whatever political aim it wants."

It is a "racist" organisation by your own defination and if you cannot see that you need help.


"About Birmingham, the riots were still provoked by racist shit-stirrers, I didn't say they were white, they were black on that occasion."

Shit stirrers!!

Yeah, I guess you could them that. They were whole communities of blacks hating whole communities of asians and whole communities of asians hating whole communities of blacks.

Must be part of that much peddled multicultural "enrichment": We get to see the bizarre spectacle of Africans and Afro-Caribbean's fighting Indians and Pakistanis on an Island in Northern Europe.

And it hasn't gone away - its still there waiting for the next spark.


"I hope you'll be pleased that I don't discriminate between racists of any colour."

No, in fact you actively applaud the anti0white racial discrimination of the National Black Police Association.


"On your last question, the small town where different people live very well together is called London, maybe you've heard of it."

Ha ha ha!!!!

You are really fucking joking!!!

Maybe in your leafy lane mate but not where I'm from - and I was born and bred in London.

I would love to have a walk with you through some of the estates I know in places like Peckham and see how long it took before your alice-in-wonderland dream of multiculturalism started beating, robbing and stabbing you. Just count yourself lucky your not a woman (not a real one anyway) as you could have added gang rape to that list too.

White flight anyone?!!

max said...

As I said. The BNP membership is a medical certificate. It testifies that who carries it suffers from acute paranoia.
I've been in Peckham quite a few times actually as I have friends living there. They like it. I even stayed in a flat in Peckham for a few days once a few years ago.
I understand how a racist would feel uneasy there but believe me, you can still get the 436 bus and live to tell the tale.

max said...

Oh, and before you say more I live in a area that I consider average but statistically is considered "deprived", so not the leafy paradise that you suggest.

The Sentinel said...

Oh you've been to Peckham a few times have you? You even stayed in a flat there did you? What an adventurer! Believe me if you had been in any of the estates I know intimately you would have known all about it.

But that's what makes me laugh with smug, deluded idiots like you - you really don't have a clue where you are and what is going on around you - until it comes crashing into your face that is.

Take another leftist idiot that amused me some time back now - Tony Banks - wandering around cluelessly in his own constituency on the day of his 'respect' campaign launch, when, horror of horrors, he was treated to some his rich diversity at knife point:

"I gave him the time and he just whacked me in the face.
"They (there were four of them) forced me over to the other side of the street. Then I felt a knife in the side of me," the MP said.

The youths demanded his wallet. Mr Banks said he did not have one, but he did give them some money which he had just withdrawn from a cash machine.

I just said 'That was a stupid thing to do because I'm the local MP and you aren't going to get away with this'. One shouted back 'Parliament? Parliament? Would you like to know what I think about Parliament?'."
The MP added: "When they put the knife against me I decided I would rather get out of it than die."

Oh dear.

As for your "friends living there. They like it" they are nowhere the Peckham I know, that's for sure. All but the most cracked up mugger wants out of there, and with damn good reason too.

But there again that is something else that amuses with me with your type too - I met two young girls on my last break abroad and they were telling me all about what they disliked with bad old 'racist' England and that they lived in Brixton - like it was some badge of honour - but when I started naming some bars in the area to see if they knew anyone I did they told me, with no trace of irony, that they never went anywhere in Brixton because they were too afraid, they only got cabs in and out of the flat they lived in.

When I asked when on earth they lived there if that is how they felt they told me it was because they wanted to live in, and experience a real multicultural area!

As for your "statistically deprived area that you think is average" - come on man! If it was 'deprived' you would know all about it!!

But then, how does one part of London become 'deprived' form another part of London just a a couple of miles down the road?

Just as a house is made of bricks and is only as strong as its foundation - so an area (and a country) is made up of its people and only as strong as that foundation too.

It goes without saying that every dangerously violent shit hole, not just in London, not just in the UK but the western world over is dominated by ethnics - and the worst ones are split into distinct ethnic areas, such as the massive problems the blacks and the Latinos are having in California, where a real race war is raging away.

But then, they do have a few years on us with their rich diversity.

max said...

That's your perception based on a selective reading of data and an inability to recognize the causes.
Your opinion that you're in the know of some tough places I don't is completely unjustified. I know plenty of black kids living in Peckham estates and in better housing around the estates and they're great kids. And I know them well because they're my nephews.
They're all doing very well and staying out of trouble.

max said...

"It goes without saying that every dangerously violent shit hole, not just in London, not just in the UK but the western world over is dominated by ethnics"

That's because the people in the worst conditions, do not have other choice than to live there and if their social and economic situation is not addressed then their housing environment and its immediate vicinity becomes all their world, so you have those problem estates where multitudes of destitute people are put together and those particularly negative social dynamics occure.
For example, kids that don't have enough positive activities to stimulate them and not enough adults' attention to make sure that they flourish, often go out of control by teenage years and there you have all those gang type activity.
What's the answer? It's an articulated set of answers. Make sure that children have enough mummy and daddy to grow up healthily, that there is a social mix that prevents the creation of ghettos, that there is enough policing, that the local authorities have the powers to address specific situations, that kids find positive role models they can relate to, that there are positive opportunities around where those people live, and a lot of other conditions that can improve people's life. And I mean all people's life, these things are true for people of all colors.

max said...

And by the way England has been a Country of slums since the industrial revolution, that's a full two centuries before any meaningful immigraton.
Just read Dickens to learn about white working class' heaven on earth.

The Sentinel said...

"That's your perception based on a selective reading of data and an inability to recognize the causes."

No, that is every place ethnics have settled in numbers white (sorry, 'western') countries- in places as far apart and diverse from the US to the UK, Norway to Australia, Denmark to Italy, Sweden to Holland.

If you really want the grossly disproportionate figures graphically their criminal influence and criminal bent I will be only to happy to provide them (although they have already been provided previously on this blog.)

Are you seriously suggesting that these countries import these people into their countries solely so they can 'discriminate' against them; set up ghettos in their own cities and spend inordinate sums fo their hard earned cash?

Australia and the Nordic bloc for instance have only allowed so-called 'asylum seekers' in - and it has backfired spectacularly - with violent crime, especially rape through the roof in Scandinavia (and something new to Scandinavia - the ethnic gang rape) with the official police figures placing two-thirds of the rapes at the door of non-whites and a simialir figure for the total crime rate.

Similarly in Australia large areas are no-go for police and Australians having been taken over by the Lebanese that the Aussie government felt so sorry for, and the Vietnamese, and now, even shocking these areas by their extreme violence, the Sudanese and Somalians.

Wheresoever the ethnic intake has arrived and settled, so follows violent crime and decay.


"Your opinion that you're in the know of some tough places I don't is completely unjustified. I know plenty of black kids living in Peckham estates and in better housing around the estates and they're great kids. And I know them well because they're my nephews."

People are always going to try and believe that their nephews , etc. are better then everyone else, and couldn't possibly do the things that others do but the truth is you have no idea of what they are up to when you are not around.

If I did a straw poll of what people that of the majority of the black kids in Peckham and their behaviour I can guarantee you that nice is not a word that would figure.

It is not at all unjustified that I am in the know of some 'tough' places in London because I was brought up in several London shit holes and I have the inside knowledge of the real workings of these places that you and other outsiders don't.

Like I said, people like you more often then not have no real idea of what is going on around them and the danger that they are lucky to escape.


"That's because the people in the worst conditions, do not have other choice than to live there..."

Don’t give me that poverty crap because I was brought up in amongst it all and continue to live amongst it all and these people have had equal, if not greater, opportunity then the rest of us and have just as much, if not more, access to ‘social security’ pay outs.

It pretty much says at all when even our neutered "politically correct" police have to have a special dedicated unit solely for the purpose of dealing with black crime.

Of course, no such unit exists for whites. No matter how poor.


"And by the way England has been a Country of slums since the industrial revolution, that's a full two centuries before any meaningful immigraton.Just read Dickens to learn about white working class' heaven on earth."

I don't need to read Dickens mate, I was brought up in various slum areas and I know first hand what poverty is. Do you?

max said...

Well, I really said all I had to say, I live in a society where different people get along together quite well, not that there aren't problems but there are a lot of people trying to do something about it positively.
So best of luck, I just hope you get better one day.

The Sentinel said...

"Well, I really said all I had to say"

I'll bet - the facts speak for themselves and there is only so much hypocrisy, double standards and smoke and mirrors that even you can employ.


"I live in a society where different people get along together quite well"

Not in reality then, clearly.


"not that there aren't problems but there are a lot of people trying to do something about it positively."

There certainly are. Thanks for the recognition.


"So best of luck, I just hope you get better one day."

Unfortunately I just know that you are going to get better one day, and most likely not too far off, when reality wakes you up with a big sharp bang.

max said...

With "people trying to do something about it" I was meaning teachers, policemen, people involved with volunteering... all those that give a positive contribution to society to make it better for everyone.
Belive me, nobody needs some racist propaganda round their doorstep.
Anyway, I trust that your insight into the future matches your understanding of history.

The Sentinel said...

"With "people trying to do something about it" I was meaning teachers, policemen, people involved with volunteering..."

Thanks again, the BNP includes all those these elements.


"all those that give a positive contribution to society to make it better for everyone."

Once again, thanks for the recognition.


"Anyway, I trust that your insight into the future matches your understanding of history."

And I know that your ability to reason is as tenuous as your grip on reality.

max said...

The key to understanding my post was in the part about people not needing racist propaganda around their doorsteps.
Anyway, although some policemen do sympathize with you I nevertheless believe that the vast majority of them do not welcome your support.

The Sentinel said...

"The key to understanding my post was in the part about people not needing racist propaganda..."

Oh you mean facts? Like the "racism cuts both ways" campaign, highlighting the widespread attacks and murders of whites by ethics that have been completely ignored by the media, let alone the police.

http://bnp.org.uk/racism.pdf


"...around their doorsteps"

And its not just doorsteps and letterboxs anymore!

Nope, the BNP has a mobile campaign unit now known as the truth truck.

It is proving very popular.


"Anyway, although some policemen do sympathize with you I nevertheless believe that the vast majority of them do not welcome your support."

Yes but you also believe in a failed ideology that has murdered over 100 million people don't you?

I can tell you from personal experience that a hell of a lot of police do MORE then sympathise, but many are afraid of the illegal political persecution that this vicious and vindictive abomination of a government would mete out were they to openly support the BNP.

These poor bastards are often at the front-line of this wonderful multicultural enrichment experiment, and are to busy worrying about their lives (and their jobs) to get involved in this most much touted national celebration of diversity.

max said...

Wow, that BNP document is pure racist poison.
A collection of lies that altogether sounds like "there are also non-white racists, so why can't we?".

Is this your argument?
Get a life.

max said...

And what about the claim that the BNP is gaining great support:
http://tinyurl.com/43xno2

The Sentinel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Sentinel said...

"Wow, that BNP document is pure racist poison...A collection of lies..."

Not at all. It is, very unfortunately, all true and verifiable.

But the truth is of no interest to poisonous trouble makers like you that use the carefully orchestrated myth of white only 'racism' to advance your own political agenda.

As well as extreme violence, sexual offences seem to be another penchant of our ethnic 'enrichers' (as previously mentioned, the rape rate has exploded in Scandinavia - particularly attacks on under 15 year olds - with official police figures revealing that two-thirds of the perpetrators are non-white) and so we see the awful and previously unheard of spectre of the ethnic gang rape and the racially inspired grooming of young girls by- primarily Muslim- ethnic's prevalent in places like Dewsbury.


"that altogether sounds like "there are also non-white racists, so why can't we?"

Yet again you reek of hypocrisy - you contort logic to support the National Black Police Association position of only representing blacks (with a very shallow caveat that "whites can join too - as associates)
with its open Black = Full membership and White = Half membership (not that there are any) and you openly support their call for racial discrimination against whites.

It is you who is saying "whites are racist, why can't blacks be?"

But, as you well know, that is not the underlying message anyway - it is clearly that we have all heard of Stephen Lawrence (ad nauseam) because it was a useful political tool to beat the police, and whites in general with but, just for instance, how many people have heard of Kris Donald?

"Kriss Donald, a slightly built, 15-year-old schoolboy was abducted from the streets of Pollockshields, Glasgow, on March 14, 2004. His kidnappers were five British Muslims of Pakistani descent, intent on exacting retribution on a white male - any white male would do - following a fight in a night club the previous weekend. Kriss was driven around for several hours whilst he was held down and tortured in the back of the car. He was eventually taken to an area of waste ground where he was finished off. Before he died, he was castrated, burned with cigarettes; his eyes were gouged out and he was stabbed repeatedly. Once on the waste ground he was doused with gasoline and set alight whilst still alive. He crawled a few metres and then, mercifully, died. A walker who discovered his body the following morning was unaware that it was even human, remarking, that at first, he thought it was the carcass of an animal."

And why the hell have poeple not heard of him?

Because this was an absolutely horrific and outrageous attack on an innocent young male who happened to be white - but even worse, his racially motivated torturers and murders were non-white.


"And what about the claim that the BNP is gaining great support: http://tinyurl.com/43xno2"

You have linked to rag of a blog - what kind of rubbish source is this.

The BNP have over 100 councillors and a member of the London Assembly - aside from the reptilian self-denying freaks of the Labour party, how many elected representatives does your poisonous bunch of have?

max said...

As I said, your reasoning goes "there are non-white racists, therefore I can be a racist".

And your reasoning on the NBPA goes: "I don't care if you say that the NBPA is a workers' association, as long as I keep on pretending of not hearing it and lying some idiots will be fooled into my racist camp".

Typical BNP strategy. You don't give a fucking shit about intellectual honesty.

Again, get a life.

The Sentinel said...

Two of your quotes acknowledging

a) the National Black Police Association has a racial selection policy that offers whites only half-membership and

b) that the National Black Police Association openly calls for racial discrimination against whites and that you think it has merits, and is indeed, "a good thing."

"The NBPA offers membership to everyone involved in policing, only associate membership is offered to those that are not members of ethnic minority groups though.."

"On positive discrimination...It must be examined in its merits..it may be a good thing"


"Typical BNP strategy. You don't give a fucking shit about intellectual honesty."

Tut tut.

You do tend to resort to expletives when faced with something (pretty much everything) you have no answer for.

Be honest:

1) had you ever heard of that bloody poor kid, Kriss Donald?

2) why was it not front page new nationally, if not internationally?

3) how many elected officials do the SWP have?

(Cue some real expletives)

max said...

I stand by all I said about the NBPA including the statement that you're trying hard to pretend that you don't understand so the you can keep on repeating your nonsense.

I don't need to repeat what I wrote above but I'd suggest your cutting and pasting a selection of my words from longer sentences to create a sequence that doesn't give the full meaning of my original post but give you a chance of pretending that it's something else is a silly thing to do. Anybody can just scroll up and compare your pasting efforts with the original post. Now why don't you read them again and try to discover their menaing? They're in plain English after all. How you still don't manage to understand them is a mystery.

About that poor kid killed by those Pakistani thugs I will first report his mother's words:
"It doesn't matter to my family what colour these men are. Kriss is gone because of gangs, not just in Pollokshields but every area of our communities."

These words were pronounced after Nick Griffin went there to stir racial hatred.

And I agree with her completely and find your desire to stir on a poor kid's death really distasteful.

Since you raised a comparison with Stephen Lawrence murder I want to bring to your attention the difference between your attitude and that of those that fought for justice after his death.
They use his murder to fight AGAINST racism, as they believe it to be the cause of his death.
You use that other murder to fight FOR racism, as you believe it to be the cause of his death.
Can you spot the difference?

As I said, for me a racist is a racist and a thug is a thug, no matter what their colour is.
And the law says this too, it is not a crime to be a racist, it is a crime to racially abuse somebody and to incite crime on racial ground.
To be a racist is a personal matter, I believe in freedom of thought and speech, that's why I'm spending some time discussing here with you, but if you want to have a discussion you must be intellectually honest otherwise I drop off because I can't take children's games in an adult conversation.

Now, I believe that the suggestion that people of one colour are naturally more criminal than those from another colour is a lie. And this is what your BNP racist leaflet does, it present a big lie in a very glossy form. And you'll find a few fools that fall for it. And you will feel proud about it.
And then you'll hit the wall because the rest of the world is much more clever than that.

On your last three questions:
a) maybe, it was years ago, we are bombarded of news so maybe I forgot, I understand that it didn't make it big in the news so very possibly I didn't;
b) some news make it some don't, normally it's a matter of luck. Very often some big news don't get the attention that they would get on another day because there are bigger news on the same day;
c) Don't know, don't care.

But now I want to conclude with a specific questions for you, let me take you to task on the quote that you produced on that kid's death.
I just read all the reports I could find on the internet about it and I found some quite interesting discrepancy with what you wrote there.

1 )You wrote "...Before he died, he was castrated, burned with cigarettes; his eyes were gouged out and he was stabbed repeatedly..."

I checked all reports available and there is no mention of castration and gauging of eyes.
It was a gruesome murder but why add those details? I did a search on the exact words you put in your comment and could not find them. I found similar ones on the information on the Youtube video about the sentencing of the murderers but even there the claim that there was castration and gauging is accompanied by the words "it is alleged that..." a magic formula that many think always absolves the writer from the sin of bullshitting, only that to be any meaningful it should also say by whom was that alleged;

2) the same Youtube info (that you seem to have copied except for the words "it is alleged") also says that they were looking for "any white kid" when in fact all journalistic sources say that they were looking for a kid from a specific area. There was a component of ethnic hate but they had a more specific target than "any white kid", as also one can understand from that comment of the victim's mother that I reported above.

Now, I don't want to produce a pecking order of nastiness for its own sake but what you describe is complete all out mindless racism without any other reason and the specific actions are of the most enormous sadistic cruelty.
What looks to have happened is surely of exceptional gravity, and those guys are nasty racist pieces of work, and they deserve the most severe sentence under the law, nevertheless the details of the actual event that took place then and there were different and the whole nature of what happened less extraordinarily sadistic and racist than what you reported.

And it looks to me that what you reported fits your ideology even better than what happened.
Now maybe you thought this report was correct, only that it wasn't. Maybe you had it from some racist resource website that you trust. I couldn't find it. What I found says different from what you quoted.
The issue remains that almost invariably anytime one makes a random check of racist "facts" the result is that there's a large component of bullshit.

In fact I also tried to find the data backing Nick Griffin's claim that during the same period when 36 racially motivated murders of ethnic minority people were committed also 142 racially motivated murders of whites were committed and reading attentively one realizes that's pure bullshit again, and by a long measure.
In fact old Griffin says that the criteria he used to determine whether a murder was racially motivated was the same used by the IRR and that means in his own words:
"any incident is to be regarded as racial if it is perceived as such by someone - whether the victim, their family, members of the local community or political analysts"

So, any murder that Nick Griffin or any other BNP member thinks is racially motivated could go into his list of white people killed by black people for racial reasons. Genial.

Now why isn't this explained on the BNP leaflet that you linked to above?

The Sentinel said...

"I stand by all I said about the NBPA including the statement that you're trying hard to pretend that you don't understand so the you can keep on repeating your nonsense."

You said what you said, and yes people can look back at it and see the gross hypocrisy of your muddled mind.



"They're in plain English after all. How you still don't manage to understand them is a mystery."

Yes, you agree that whites can only get half-membership to the National Black Police Association and think that racial discrimination against whites "may be a good thing."

That is what you have said.



"About that poor kid killed by those Pakistani thugs I will first report his mother's words"

Yeah, that wasn't the question though was it? The question was had you heard of him? Clearly not until you googled it.

And his mother has every right to speak for herself and maybe even her boy but not for whites in general and the attack was very relevant to race - and the fact that a white kid was brutally murdered for his race.



"And I agree with her completely and find your desire to stir on a poor kid's death really distasteful."

Yet again the sheer hypocrisy is breathtaking - Stephen Lawrence's murder receiving unprecedented media coverage and being forced onto the public in every conceivable way is a great thing to your mind, not at all likely to "stir up racial hatred" but the attempt to highlight the even more gruesome and appalling murder of an even younger boy - because the media didn't want to — is completely nefarious.

What you are saying, yet again, is that if a black kid is murdered for racial reasons shout it from the rooftops and make sure everyone knows, if a white kid is murdered similarly then anyone speaking of it is "stirring up racial hatred."

You really are either one very confused individual or a one very poisonous one.


"As I said, for me a racist is a racist and a thug is a thug, no matter what their colour is.
And the law says this too, it is not a crime to be a racist, it is a crime to racially abuse somebody and to incite crime on racial ground."

Except if you’re white, that is.

"Anthony Walker and Christopher Yates, concerned about female friends late at night, walked with them to bus stops in Liverpool and London respectively to make sure that the women got home safely. Both were set upon, not far from homes they shared with their mothers, by other young men from their own neighbourhoods who had been drinking heavily or taking drugs.

In Huyton, Liverpool, Mr Walker, 18, who was black, was attacked by Paul Taylor and Michael Barton and killed with a savage blow to the head with an ice axe. They were sentenced to at least 24 years and 18 years, respectively. In Barking, East London, Mr Yates, 30, a white man, was knocked to the ground and kicked and stamped on by Sajid Zulfiqar, Zahid Bashir and Imran Maqsood.

Every bone in his face was broken in a ferocious attack. Afterwards, Zulfiqar boasted in Urdu: “We killed the white boy. That will teach a white man to stick his nose in Paki business.”

But while a judge in Liverpool decided that Mr Walker’s murderers were racists — and therefore liable to more severe jail terms — an Old Bailey judge decided that Mr Yates’s murderers had not been motivated by racial hatred.

Zulfiqar, Bashir and Maqsood were sentenced to 15 years in prison, the minimum tariff for murder."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article745230.ece

"To be a racist is a personal matter, I believe in freedom of thought and speech, that's why I'm spending some time discussing here with you"

You are not doing me any favors.

"but if you want to have a discussion you must be intellectually honest otherwise I drop off because I can't take children's games in an adult conversation."

You are funny, after an elementary history lesson you screamed this in response:

"People didn't fight for bullshit! They fought they fucking Nazi, the scum of the earth!"

And shortly after:

"Typical BNP strategy. You don't give a fucking shit about intellectual honesty. Again, get a life"


"Now, I believe that the suggestion that people of one colour are naturally more criminal than those from another colour is a lie"

And yet again, you are wrong.

Here are just a few of the official statistics proving the complete opposite of your deluded ‘belief’.


"Blacks were almost three times more likely than Hispanics and five times more likely than whites to be in jail." -- US

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/jails.htm

"About half the US nation’s 2.2 million prisoners are black. With only 36 million of us, that’s an astounding 3% of African Americans, counting all ages and both sexes, languishing behind bars, with a roughly equal number on probation, parole, house arrest or other court supervision. Almost one in three 18-year-old black males across the board is likely to catch a felony conviction, and in some communities nearly half the black male workforce under 40 have criminal records"

http://www.blackcommentator.com/146/146_cover_dixon_ten_worst.html

"Aboriginal people are hugely over-represented in Australian prison populations. Nationally, Aboriginal people constitute less than 1% of the Australian population; however Aboriginal people constitute 19% of the total adult prison population, and approximately 40% of the juveniles in detention."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A12645939

"Aboriginal people make up 3% of Canada’s population but about 20% of the prison inmate population, which makes the study of Saskatchewan’s correctional services based on the new Integrated Correctional Services Survey very pertinent.

The number of Aboriginal inmates is reaching critical levels in Saskatchewan, which is among the provinces with the highest proportion of Aboriginal people. Of the 25,000 adults who were under correctional supervision in the province from 1999 to 2004, 57% were Aboriginal people. Yet, Aboriginal people made up only 10% of Saskatchewan’s adult population.

The situation of Aboriginal young people is even more worrisome. On an average day in May 2001, about 13% of all Aboriginal people aged 18 and 19 in Saskatchewan spent time in a correctional facility. In addition, the rapid growth rate of Saskatchewan’s Aboriginal population may drive more unemployed young people into the province’s prison system."

http://www41.statcan.ca/2693/ceb2693_002_e.htm

"Alarmed at last week's police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority" – Denmark

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html

"a 1998 Justice Ministry survey on crime, which found that immigrants were over-represented by an average of 46 per cent. In addition, the recent publication of a report from the Copenhagen police shows that 47.5 per cent of prisoners on remand for serious crimes such as murder, attempted murder and rape come from immigrant backgrounds." -- Denmark

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62173.html

"Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily"

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

“Black youngsters are five times more likely to be in prison"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml


"On your last three questions:
a) maybe, it was years ago, we are bombarded of news so maybe I forgot, I understand that it didn't make it big in the news so very possibly I didn't;
b) some news make it some don't, normally it's a matter of luck. Very often some big news don't get the attention that they would get on another day because there are bigger news on the same day;
c) Don't know, don't care."

A) What kind of callous mind could ever forget something like that? No, you didn't hear about it because it wasn't deemed important enough. He was white.

B) A matter of luck? You really do stretch credibility to the brink. Do you REALLY believed that the racially motivated torture and murder of an innocent 15 year old is not the biggest news there is - or that if he was any other race then white it would not have been blaring night and day?

C) You know the answer, and as a political person of course you care. Very much. It is the people of this country who do not care for you, or your ideas.



"1 )You wrote "...Before he died, he was castrated, burned with cigarettes; his eyes were gouged out and he was stabbed repeatedly..."

No, I didn't write that. That is why it is in quotation marks - see below.



"I checked all reports available and there is no mention of castration and gauging of eyes."

All of them - really?

Then you will have noticed the immense discrepancies in what was reported. Details were that emerged during the trial (of which I followed and heard all of the details - this youth was stabbed in the eye and had a stab wound to his crotch so deep it almost severed his groin) were deliberately left out of the media reports.

And thus accurate mainstream media reports are hard to find.

This is not without precedent, such as the sexual nature of the James Bugler murder that the media failed to report.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/bulger/4.html

Or the fact that this poor murdered 14 year old girl is likely to have been made into kebabs by her pedophile Asian sexual abusers and murderers:

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/blackpoolnews/Schoolgirl39s-body-39ended-up-in.2904171.jp

But crucially one of the witnesses, actually one of the Asian men on trial for the murder said:

"The next day, Zahid told Mr Duguid, X had been "rambling on" about stabbing or gouging the culprit’s eyes out, but Zahid said he never took the threats seriously."

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Man-on-trial-for-killing.2580686.jp

And he should know, he was there, he was one of them.



"it is alleged that..." a magic formula that many think always absolves the writer from the sin of bullshitting"

Or actually from prosecution, as this article was written during the trial.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/british_renaissance/blog/2007/08/23/the_big_story_that_disappeared



"and those guys are nasty racist pieces of work, and they deserve the most severe sentence under the law"

You would think so, but one of his killers is out of prison already- an early release from a grossly insulting 30 month sentence.

Can you imagine the national media uproar if this kid had been black or Asian and his killers white and one of the killers were out after such a paltry term?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6130882.stm




"And it looks to me that what you reported fits your ideology even better than what happened.
Now maybe you thought this report was correct, only that it wasn't. Maybe you had it from some racist resource website that you trust."

Not at all. I know from the actual trial what took place and that report came from a Telegraph link written during the trial - hence the 'alleged' caveat.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/british_renaissance/blog/2007/08/23/the_big_story_that_disappeared



"In fact I also tried to find the data backing Nick Griffin's claim that during the same period when 36 racially motivated murders of ethnic minority people were committed also 142 racially motivated murders of whites were committed and reading attentively one realizes that's pure bullshit again, and by a long measure."

Here is a partial list of the victims mentioned:

http://bnp.org.uk/2008/03/racism-cuts-both-ways/



"In fact old Griffin says that the criteria he used to determine whether a murder was racially motivated was the same used by the IRR and that means in his own words:
"any incident is to be regarded as racial if it is perceived as such by someone - whether the victim, their family, members of the local community or political analysts"

I do not see that mentioned in that publication.


But here is another shocking attack on an innocent 15 year old white kid - with hammers in front of teachers and parents in a school playground - you will not have heard of:

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1965082.0/

Or this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-100826/Police-fear-new-riots-white-youth-dies-fight.html

Or this:

"A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences

The trial came amid growing concern at the attitudes of some Asian men towards white girls which campaigners for women claim few people wish to address.
Parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist.

Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.

Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it.
However, Ms Cryer added: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece

BNP condemned for Sharon claims said...

The far-right British National Party has been condemned for claiming in a leaflet that the murder of Bradford police officer Sharon Beshenivsky during a robbery was a racial attack. The leaflets, distributed across the country, detailing more than 160 other claimed racist incidents, have been branded as a blatant attempt to incite racial hatred.

PC Beshenivsky was shot dead by robbers on November 18, 2005, outside a travel agency in Morley Street, Bradford.

Her widower Paul Beshenivsky said: “Sharon’s murder was not a racist attack and it should not be used in that way. These people are totally distorting the facts and just making it up. I was told about this by the Police Federation and both they and we are not at all happy about it. At the end of the day the call Sharon went to could have been responded to by anyone. It would not have mattered whether it had been an English, Asian or Polish officer who attended, this gang would have shot them.”

Tom McGhie, chairman of the West Yorkshire Police Federation, said: “It is appalling that the BNP would use the tragedy of Sharon Beshenivsky’s murder to try to further its own political agenda. I can’t imagine what the Beshenivsky family and Sharon’s colleagues would feel about her death being used in this manner. To relate the murder of Sharon to a racist attack is simply wrong. It was a crime carried out by violent criminals and this fact was highlighted at the court case. These were dangerous criminals prepared to use ultimate force.”

Bradford South Divisional Commander Chief Superintendent Alison Rose said: “Sharon Beshenivsky died doing her duty trying to stop a robbery, there was not a racial motive to her death. It is unfortunate that the BNP have used her image to inaccurately portray a racist crime when in reality she died doing her job trying to stop crime.”

BNP spokesman Simon Darby defended the party’s tactics. “We are angered by the continued murder of white people,” he said. “We used exactly the same criteria as the Institute for Race Relations and if it had been an Asian police officer killed by white people it would have been classed as a racist attack. No-one ever criticises their statistics. This is a typical tactic of the left.”

But Paul Meszaros, of Bradford Hope Not Hate, said the leaflet was a cynical attempt to stir up hatred. He said: “This is another attempt by the BNP to incite racial violence. They have deliberately twisted the facts to misrepresent the issue.”

The Sentinel said...

See above for some disgusting anti-white racial attacks and murders.

BNP condemned for Sharon claims said...

What! Are you now going to verbally attack Sharon Beshinivsky's widower Paul for political correctness and being an "anti-white Stalinist" for stating "Sharon’s murder was not a racist attack and it should not be used in that way. These people are totally distorting the facts and just making it up".

The Sentinel said...

What are you on about you muppet!!!

It says "See above for some disgusting anti-white racial attacks and murders." i.e see above your silly post, quite obviously, you buffoon - if nothing else did the use of plurals not sink through your skull?

And its very strange how these 'anonymous' commentators keep pitching in with the same semantic style of regular commentators.

The Sentinel said...

But I see you have no response to the long list of anti-white attacks, murders and the judical application of double- standards to whites posted above, as well as the damning evidence of that completely blows apart the comment "Now, I believe that the suggestion that people of one colour are naturally more criminal than those from another colour is a lie" as well as every other alice-in-wonderland PC rubbish about crime that you people come up with.

Cold hard figures proving that wherever ethics reside in western nations, they are by far the most prolific and immensely disproportionate criminals.

Fact.

Should bring in some more 'anonymous' distractions.

BNP condemned for Sharon claims said...

Ah, yes, "see above", because you KNOW you can't justify the shameless exploitation of Sharon's murder.

You and the BNP are an absolute disgrace!

The Sentinel said...

Its because I know nothing about it you fool, I don't speak for the BNP I express my own independent opinion and consequently I don't have to justify anything - and its just a distraction from, yip , another anonymous contributor.

Strange how that always happens when reams of irrefutable facts are presented.

Like the ones above regarding indisputable anti-white racist attacks and murders - not to mention the racist pedophile attacks on young white girls:

"A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences

The trial came amid growing concern at the attitudes of some Asian men towards white girls which campaigners for women claim few people wish to address.
Parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist.

Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.

Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it.
However, Ms Cryer added: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940

And the global criminal nature of ethnic's wheresoever they reside that you are so desperate to distract attention away from:

"Blacks were almost three times more likely than Hispanics and five times more likely than whites to be in jail." -- US

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/jails.htm

"About half the US nation’s 2.2 million prisoners are black. With only 36 million of us, that’s an astounding 3% of African Americans, counting all ages and both sexes, languishing behind bars, with a roughly equal number on probation, parole, house arrest or other court supervision. Almost one in three 18-year-old black males across the board is likely to catch a felony conviction, and in some communities nearly half the black male workforce under 40 have criminal records"

http://www.blackcommentator.com/146/146_cover_dixon_ten_worst.html

"Aboriginal people are hugely over-represented in Australian prison populations. Nationally, Aboriginal people constitute less than 1% of the Australian population; however Aboriginal people constitute 19% of the total adult prison population, and approximately 40% of the juveniles in detention."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A12645939

"Aboriginal people make up 3% of Canada’s population but about 20% of the prison inmate population, which makes the study of Saskatchewan’s correctional services based on the new Integrated Correctional Services Survey very pertinent.

The number of Aboriginal inmates is reaching critical levels in Saskatchewan, which is among the provinces with the highest proportion of Aboriginal people. Of the 25,000 adults who were under correctional supervision in the province from 1999 to 2004, 57% were Aboriginal people. Yet, Aboriginal people made up only 10% of Saskatchewan’s adult population.

The situation of Aboriginal young people is even more worrisome. On an average day in May 2001, about 13% of all Aboriginal people aged 18 and 19 in Saskatchewan spent time in a correctional facility. In addition, the rapid growth rate of Saskatchewan’s Aboriginal population may drive more unemployed young people into the province’s prison system."

http://www41.statcan.ca/2693/ceb2693_002_e.htm

"Alarmed at last week's police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority" – Denmark

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html

"a 1998 Justice Ministry survey on crime, which found that immigrants were over-represented by an average of 46 per cent. In addition, the recent publication of a report from the Copenhagen police shows that 47.5 per cent of prisoners on remand for serious crimes such as murder, attempted murder and rape come from immigrant backgrounds." -- Denmark

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62173.html

"Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily"

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

“Black youngsters are five times more likely to be in prison"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml


Your ideology and people like you are responsible for the situations above and all the rest to come - you are a poisonous, treacherous disgrace.

max said...

Will you ever be ashamed of being caught lying?
You "misquoted" yesterday and didn't give any convincing reason for it.
Your party is a bunch of racist liars. You first lie to yourself, then to everyone else.
And by the way, I checked the links you posted in response to me, half of the times you didn't even understand the meaning of the articles.
You can't read English. How can you hold a conversation without behaving like a 5 year old? The answer is that you can't, hence your relentless hysteric vomiting of racist dribble against which there's no possible answer.
The BNP is not a party, it's a club of paranoid psychopaths and you're a perfect example of it.

Phil BC said...

And that marks the end of this "discussion".