tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post8619437952736781381..comments2024-03-27T09:14:27.496+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: Corbynism and Anti-SemitismPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-37173126399389978172018-03-31T11:09:04.318+01:002018-03-31T11:09:04.318+01:00"one which cannot grant equality to most of i..."one which cannot grant equality to most of its native population lest they annihilate the population the state claims to exist"<br /><br />The Palestinians are only the majority of natives if you want to use the 'dog born in a stable' analogy not normally beloved of left-wingers.<br />Lidl_Janusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-55139210222884762502018-03-31T09:52:36.969+01:002018-03-31T09:52:36.969+01:00@Levi,
No I'm not. I am saying that reforms ...@Levi,<br /><br />No I'm not. I am saying that reforms can only come from joint action by Jewish and Arab workers being able to find common cause as workers. It will never be possible to achieve such common cause if Jews are confronted by demands for the physical destruction of their state, as being an illegal state.<br /><br />The error of Third Campists, such as the AWL, who post facto defend the establishment of the state of Israel in the first place, is that it reflects the fact that they have lost faith in the working-class as the revolutionary agent of historical change. So, they place their faith in other social forces to bring about change, and to implement their vision of morality. It is necessarily opportunist, resulting in politics being driven by short-termist requirements to "do something" to deal with the latest moral panic, which then simply results in the contradictions exploding in some other form, further down the road, and requiring a sharp zig-zag to address it.<br /><br />The Third Campists of the SWP, and others who call for the destruction of Israel, as a means of addressing the plight of the Palestinians, are simply a mirror image of the Third Campism of the AWL. They apply the same logic that the AWL used to justify the creation of Israel, to address the plight of the Jews, now to justify the violent destruction of Israel to address the plight of the Palestinians.<br /><br />As Trotsky described this ideological trend of Third Campism back in the 1930's, it is simply petty-bourgeois moralism that flows from their loss of faith in the working-class, and attachment to other social forces - for the SWP et al various reactionary "anti-imperialist", but actually only nationalist forces, and for the AWL the bourgeois democratic state. In order to cover up this crisis of faith, both of these trends have to cover it up, and try to convince themselves they have not abandoned Marxist politics by proclaiming ever louder their belief in independent working class action, even though their actual behaviour repeatedly demonstrates they believe in no such thing. <br /><br />I said nothing about the right of return etc. I am dealing with the reality as it exists, that those who argue that the state of Israel is an illegitimate state with no right to exist, argue for its forcible destruction, and that forcible destruction requires the deaths of millions of Jews. No socialist can support that.Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-47947297759736155662018-03-30T22:08:05.129+01:002018-03-30T22:08:05.129+01:00Does passing information to the Telegraph undermin...Does passing information to the Telegraph undermining the Leader and being exposed,class as an Anti-Semitism attack?<br />Apparently, 20,000 anti-Semitic insults plus death threats followed.<br />How many prosecutions?<br />Who actually is penning such accusations of mass membership anti-Semitism?<br />My own thoughts are that it is probably those that did not want Jeremy as leader and probably sponsored rival candidates for the role.<br />I declare that I am ignorant of racist and anti Jewish people in the Labour party because I have never met any but I have met many who oppose Israeli carpet bombing of Palestinian areas.<br />Is this a Progress v Momentum fight?<br />Lansman, of Jewish faith should be asked.<br />Gary Elsbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-1528384359919752972018-03-30T21:49:23.973+01:002018-03-30T21:49:23.973+01:00You are contradicting yourself. You say you want d...You are contradicting yourself. You say you want democratic reforms at the same time as saying you want ethnocracy to be maintained. You are also layering assumptions on assumptions. You think the right of return means that all Palestinians will return and you further assume that they will all be more vindictive than other liberated peoples have been towards former oppressors.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-11203386566829796842018-03-30T18:58:33.171+01:002018-03-30T18:58:33.171+01:00"You are assuming that in the face of boycott..."You are assuming that in the face of boycott, divestment and sanctions, Israelis still prefer supremacy to equality and we simply don't know how they would respond."<br /><br />But, this is besides the point. The question is not whether Israeli Jews might be prepared to negotiate a Two State solution, and the Jewish State might be pushed in that direction. That implies the continued existence of the state of Israel. The question is about those who deny the right of the state of Israel itself to exist! <br /><br />Those who hold that position are not interested in a Two State solution, or some series of democratic reforms within Israel, but with its complete abolition, and replacement with something else, in which Jews would themselves end up as an oppressed minority. The only way that is going to happen under the current world reality is by force, by a brutal, genocidal war of the kind that some in the Middle East have spoken about, and which has absolutely nothing to with any kind of socialist perspective!<br /><br />Its true that the reason we have this mess today comes down to the creation of the state of Israel in the first place, which is why socialists should and many did argue against such a solution in the first place. But, we are not moralists undertaking some kind of Quantum Leap to put right what once went wrong. We have to deal with the reality as it exists, and trying to reverse history, by effectively imposing a Palestinian state on to Israeli Jews, would be to simply repeat that historical mistake but with the actors involved reversed. Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-61325666634209432642018-03-30T14:42:49.905+01:002018-03-30T14:42:49.905+01:00Anyway, apologies to our esteemed host. I know he ...Anyway, apologies to our esteemed host. I know he doesn't want his comment space hijacked by I/P obsessives!levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-8825762670555114072018-03-30T14:41:47.208+01:002018-03-30T14:41:47.208+01:00I didn't say anything that even implied collec...I didn't say anything that even implied collective responsibility on the part of Israelis, nor would I.<br /><br />You are assuming that in the face of boycott, divestment and sanctions, Israelis still prefer supremacy to equality and we simply don't know how they would respond. There are always clues of course. When the USA decided to punish Yitzhak Shamir's government by withholding loan guarantees, Shamir reluctantly came to the negotiation table albeit only for the photo op that America was seeking. In the subsequent Israeli election, Likud lost, Labour won. It appears the Israeli public responded to what was a minimal sanction.<br /><br />When I say Israel finds war to its liking, the constant state of tension and Israel's propensity for escalation does, in addition to the massive amount of aid it receives, seem to be the glue that holds together what is possibly the most ideologically mobilised society on the planet.<br /><br />Regarding the "list of states that have peacefully disappeared where there populations opposed such a course" there is a wide gap between not peaceful on the one hand and annihilation on the other and I do feel very strongly that it is a racist stereotype with an enormously unjust, indeed racist, outcome to assume that if the Palestinians were granted equality with Jews in what is now known - to most anyway - as Israel and the occupied territories they would inevitably annihilate the Jews there.<br /><br />I don't for a moment doubt your sincerity but I find it bizarre that there are people who claim to want socialism everywhere who are determined that Israel remains a bastion of reaction. Just look at the situation now, two coup attempts against Corbyn have involved the playing of the Israel card among other things. Democratic and leftist opinion where it accepts Israel as a state specially for the world's Jews, which is how Israel defines itself and even what its name means, is inconsistent where it demands the abolition of racist rule elsewhere else. The pretence that Israel is just another country but one which cannot grant equality to most of its native population lest they annihilate the population the state claims to exist for is what has brought us to this antisemitism smear campaign and as long as Israel exists on its current basis that smear and all the destabilisation that goes with it will persist.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-34095593898942179542018-03-30T13:38:49.503+01:002018-03-30T13:38:49.503+01:00Incidentally, I'd like to see the list of stat...Incidentally, I'd like to see the list of states that have peacefully disappeared where there populations opposed such a course.<br /><br />In the United States, the desire of the individual states to retain sovereignty, as against the establishment of a centralised federal state, resulted in a brutal Civil War in which half a million workers and small farmers on both sides were killed.Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-53695430918548167662018-03-30T13:35:33.504+01:002018-03-30T13:35:33.504+01:00The wars that have been waged with neighbouring st...The wars that have been waged with neighbouring states have been partial wars not wars for the destruction of the state of Israel. Where the latter might have been the intention, such as in the 1960's, the Arab states were quickly defeated, so we do not know whether had they gained the upper hand, millions of Jews would have died, but that looks to be a reasonable assumption of what would happen under such conditions.<br /><br />Indeed, the actions of groups such as Hamas, and Hezbollah appear to have no regard, and make no distinction between the Israeli state, and Israeli Jews (or in practice Israeli Arabs) when they indiscriminately fire off crude missiles into Israel, or set off suicide bombs on buses etc.<br /><br />And, unfortunately you make a similar failure of distinction when you say,<br /><br />"Israel seems to find war quite to its liking and even with its racist ideology the wars Israel has initiated haven't resulted "in the deaths of millions"."<br /><br />That kind of collective responsibility which lumps all Israelis into the actions of the Israeli state is what leads to anti-Semitism. It is quite different, for example, to the way we do no hold all British people responsible for the actions of the British State.<br /><br />Its quite possible that at some point the current state of Israel might disappear peacefully, if for example, a United States of the Middle East is constructed. However, given the understandable concern of Israeli Jews, here and now, to have confidence in their own safety, its unlikely they would be easily convinced of such a course of action.<br /><br />After all, just look at the example of Brexit! Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-29887340088085561662018-03-30T10:52:40.611+01:002018-03-30T10:52:40.611+01:00Boffy, thanks very much for the Kinnock history. I...Boffy, thanks very much for the Kinnock history. I knew what he did as leader but not before that. Thanks again.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-82545323716923358072018-03-30T10:51:33.958+01:002018-03-30T10:51:33.958+01:00"What is anti-Semitic is a refusal to accept ..."What is anti-Semitic is a refusal to accept that whatever the rights and wrongs of its establishment, it now does exist, and any attempt to deny its existence today could only be achieved by a brutal war that would result in the deaths of millions of Jews."<br /><br />Many states have been abolished over the years without brutal wars resulting "in the deaths of millions". Israel seems to find war quite to its liking and even with its racist ideology the wars Israel has initiated haven't resulted "in the deaths of millions". The idea that the abolition of The State of Israel as a state specially for the world's Jews would essentially lead to the "deaths of millions Jews" looks like a crude anti-Arab stereotype considering frontline Arabs have won a couple of wars against Israel (Lebanon 2000 & 2007) with no disproportionate killing of Jews...au contraire. And yet Israel seems to fear boycott, divestment and sanctions" more than anything else and for those of us who support justice for the Palestinians including their right to return that BDS route seems the way to go.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-73561860689877443942018-03-30T09:21:22.814+01:002018-03-30T09:21:22.814+01:00"So, do these "not anti-Semitic anti-Zio..."So, do these "not anti-Semitic anti-Zionists" agree with Israel's right to exist? If the answer is no, they are anti-Semites, pure and simple. Dozens of states have been created since '48, but only Israel attracts this kind of opprobrium. If there is a better example of the exception proving the rule, I have yet to see one."<br /><br />Kosovo, I think is still not recognised as a state by a large number of countries. Similarly, the West does not accept the incorporation of Crimea back into Russia, and does not accept the establishment of separate states in South Ossetia.<br /><br />The fact that the state of Israel was established as a solution to anti-Semitism does not mean that it was necessarily a solution that socialists or anyone else had to support, or that opposition to its establishment made you anti-Semitic. What is anti-Semitic is a refusal to accept that whatever the rights and wrongs of its establishment, it now does exist, and any attempt to deny its existence today could only be achieved by a brutal war that would result in the deaths of millions of Jews.Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-58597572958846343872018-03-30T09:13:02.431+01:002018-03-30T09:13:02.431+01:00"We are now in a position where Corbyn is all..."We are now in a position where Corbyn is allowing himself to be so weakened as leader he could end up like Kinnock or Foot - all history and no present or the Right could simply take over but I don't know how that latter could happen organisationally."<br /><br />Kinnock never was of the Left and weakened by the Right. From the start, Kinnock was of the Right, and the means by which the Left was smashed by the Right. He had the advantage for the Right, from the beginning that many took his ill-deserved reputation of being on the left as good coin, because they were desperate for someone who could, they hoped win them an election, and who were prepared to accept a fake left in order to achieve it.<br /><br />They got neither. He began by destroying the party base through a witchhunt against socialists, opposing those Left Councils that organised to oppose Thatcher's austerity, expelling thousands of members, closing down branches and CLP's, and so on, which opened up a witchhunt of the Left in society in general, as left-wing union activists were sacked, the use of blacklists of union militants meant many of us could not get jobs, for years, and the same kind of witchhunts spread into organisations like CND and so on. By the time the Miners Strike came along the Part and union movement had been sufficiently weakened, and the mentality of the need to keep your head down so entrenched that Kinnock could stab the Miners in the back, and Labour Party members could steer away from any mention of supporting the NUM for fear of losing votes in the local elections from scabs, and other opponents of the strike!<br /><br />If you want to see how the Right could take over the party quickly in short order, look no further than Kinnock. It took the Left in my branch nearly 10 years to go from a moribund shell to one of more than 100 members, with around 30 turning up to branch meetings regularly, and it took the left in the CLP around the same amount of time to do the same, and get rid of the old right-wing MP. It took Kinnock and his supporters only a couple of years to turn it back to its previous moribund condition.<br /><br />And having destroyed the party, having seen the previous long-standing 57 out of 60 seat domination of the Council fall apart, and the Council fall into the hands of the Tories and a rag bag of "Independents", Kinnock could not even win the elections of '87 or '92 anyway, despite having moved further and further on to the ground of Thatcher. Then the Right simply pushed him to one side completely.Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-83895916364171217492018-03-30T00:57:14.261+01:002018-03-30T00:57:14.261+01:00Speedy
'Zionism/ anti-Semitism is red herrin...Speedy <br /><br />'Zionism/ anti-Semitism is red herring. "I'm not anti-Semitic but I am anti-Zionist". Zionism was created in a response to anti-Semitism'<br /><br />Cool story, bro.<br /><br />'So, do these "not anti-Semitic anti-Zionists" agree with Israel's right to exist? If the answer is no, they are anti-Semites, pure and simple.'<br /><br />Bullshit! Being opposed to Israel's 'right' to exist no more makes one an anti-Semite than opposing apartheid South Africa's 'right' to exist would have made one anti-Afrikaaner.David Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16543341419630019419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-26676422862015107532018-03-30T00:25:40.470+01:002018-03-30T00:25:40.470+01:00Having said Corbyn was throwing himself under the ...Having said Corbyn was throwing himself under the bus, I was wrong. He was interviewed by Jewish News UK http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/listen-to-the-full-jeremy-corbyn-interview/ and I think he handled the whole thing very well much to the chagrin of his Zionist detractors who had told him he had to denounce the non-Zionist Jewish Voice for Labour and only liaise with the Zionist so-called Jewish Labour Movement. The Jewish Chronicle reduced the whole interview to "Corbyn calls Jewish Voice for Labour “good people”". levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-35861039466709351972018-03-29T22:32:00.490+01:002018-03-29T22:32:00.490+01:00Yeah I don't know that I'd have assumed th...Yeah I don't know that I'd have assumed that the bankers in the terrible mural were supposed to be Jewish, so if it is anti-semitic, it's obviously too suble for me. There are genres of comics in various countries where all the characters have big noses (and who are clearly not supposed to be Jewish). Sometimes a big nose is just a big nose. <br /><br />The anti-semitism debate generally is complicated by the fact that Israel, and it's supporters, have put a lot of effort into smearing anyone who is anti-zionist as anti-semitic. Israel has basically weaponized anti-semitism to attack its critics. This doesn't mean that one shouldn't take it seriously (Gilad Atzmon is hardly an isolated case), just that one should assess accusations very carefully.cianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12792805870968697706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-47166564700400694192018-03-29T09:47:06.826+01:002018-03-29T09:47:06.826+01:00They've got big noses and beards, OBVIOUSLY th...They've got big noses and beards, OBVIOUSLY they're meant to be Jews, even if they're "Anglicans". That's the point of anti-semitism. <br /><br />Zionism/ anti-Semitism is red herring. "I'm not anti-Semitic but I am anti-Zionist". Zionism was created in a response to anti-Semitism and the Jewish state was created by the UN in 1948. <br /><br />So, do these "not anti-Semitic anti-Zionists" agree with Israel's right to exist? If the answer is no, they are anti-Semites, pure and simple. Dozens of states have been created since '48, but only Israel attracts this kind of opprobrium. If there is a better example of the exception proving the rule, I have yet to see one. Speedynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-33811902955000001002018-03-28T17:46:32.572+01:002018-03-28T17:46:32.572+01:00I think given the history of the imagery used in t...I think given the history of the imagery used in the mural we should all recoil against it whether it is malicious against Jews or not. That kind of conspiracism either begins, ends or overlaps with antisemitism somewhere along the line. The problem now is that Jeremy Corbyn has gone from throwing comrades under the bus to practically throwing himself under one. I'm not sure if he has apologised 3 or 4 times to the major Jewish organisation who want his blood: The Board of Deputies and The Jewish Leadership Council. The latter group until very recently was headed by a Mick Davis, who is now treasurer and CEO of the Conservative Party. The Board of Deputies too is dominated by Tories.<br /><br />We are now in a position where Corbyn is allowing himself to be so weakened as leader he could end up like Kinnock or Foot - all history and no present or the Right could simply take over but I don't know how that latter could happen organisationally.<br /><br />It seems to me that by pandering to this ragbag of Rightists Corbyn is suggesting that he never understood or never had confidence in the Corbyn phenomenon in the first place.<br /><br />levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-36263419360835722262018-03-28T16:54:09.528+01:002018-03-28T16:54:09.528+01:00It's fake antisemitism. Bogus. Nothing antis...It's fake antisemitism. Bogus. Nothing antisemitic about this image. I have seen all sorts of explanations given for why it's antisemitic, none of which hold up when examined.<br /><br />1. They have got big noses.<br />- Well, 3 have big noses, 3 don't.<br />- Big noses are not an feature exclusive to Jews, in fact they appear all over the world in equal abandon.<br /><br />2. They are obviously Jewish.<br />- Two of them are actually Jewish.<br />- One looks very english<br />- One looks positively oriental.<br /><br />3. It's the illuminati, you can't talk about the illuminati that's antisemitic.<br />- The Illuminati are not Jews, therefore it cannot ever be antisemitic to reference the illuminati.<br />- The all seeing eye is a Freemasons symbol<br />- The image was inspired by the US dollar<br /><br />4. It's the old trope of the new world order<br />- The New Word Order is not about Jews (this is becoming tiresome)<br />- The new world order is about many different groups, and which groups, depends on your particular conspiracy you are theorising about. It include Freemasons, Illuminati (which are not Jews remember, see above), Jews (yes, it can be about jews sometimes) and others, including Aliens.<br /><br />5. Those are the limbs of holocaust victims that these Jewish bankers are dining on.<br />- This is a special one, specifically for Peston, bless him, he got a bit carried away in his desperation to make the mural sound antisemitic.<br />- They are actually the backs of working people of different races (hence the varying skin tones)<br />- It's a monopoly board, not a dining table<br />- It is antisemitic to assume that because these are bankers, they are Jewish<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-68379903099997580392018-03-28T08:16:12.136+01:002018-03-28T08:16:12.136+01:00How does anonymous know that the characters depict...How does anonymous know that the characters depicted are these specific individuals?johnny conspiranoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16999152579310845736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-56153480824641663452018-03-27T12:54:04.955+01:002018-03-27T12:54:04.955+01:00Bartholomew's Notes on Religion is a calm, fac...Bartholomew's Notes on Religion is a calm, factual left leaning site. His post here http://barthsnotes.com/2018/03/26/a a-note-on-mear-one-and-jeremy-corbyn/ probably says all you need to know about this Near One character. He in murky waters between conspiracism, trutherism & antisemitism.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-17602531274489960462018-03-27T12:00:50.098+01:002018-03-27T12:00:50.098+01:00No, the phrase means what it says. The party is in...No, the phrase means what it says. The party is institutionally opposed to anti-semitism.<br /><br />Also, in case of any confusion for other comrades the Andy Platt above is not the same Andy Platt who is a councillor in Stoke.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-22699593019315124082018-03-27T11:59:20.916+01:002018-03-27T11:59:20.916+01:00re- anonymous. I have since found out who this ind...re- anonymous. I have since found out who this individual is. I cannot comment on the details of the case because do not know him and I have yet to find out what he is supposed to have done. Other LP members I have spoken to are very supportive however. The point I was making is that there are many people who have been arbitrarily suspended on vague charges and left in limbo, this cannot be right. The disciplinary process needs to be fair, timely and individuals should receive due process as recommended by the Chakrabarti Report. Hopefully with the clearout at HQ this should finally be delivered.John Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-54107902664805756082018-03-27T10:59:05.507+01:002018-03-27T10:59:05.507+01:00Presumably "The party is now institutionally ...Presumably "The party is now institutionally anti-anti-semitic" should read "The party is not institutionally anti-anti-semitic".Marc Mulhollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495858196718224742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-61448761395711780812018-03-26T19:49:48.446+01:002018-03-26T19:49:48.446+01:00I see it as anti capitalist..Why has it taken peop...I see it as anti capitalist..Why has it taken people 6 years to discover that Jeremy Corbyn response was inappropriate ?Rosie Rechternoreply@blogger.com