tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post8427132639346347363..comments2024-03-27T09:14:27.496+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: The Perfect VaginaPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-89415726670551632332009-03-18T06:01:00.000+00:002009-03-18T06:01:00.000+00:00I really can't see the point. If all vaginas end u...I really can't see the point. If all vaginas end up looking looking like Barbie's life will become very stale and boring.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-23915507585834816102008-11-25T21:40:00.000+00:002008-11-25T21:40:00.000+00:00Heart of the Flower is an unflinching exploration ...Heart of the Flower is an unflinching exploration of the beautiful diversity of women’s genitals, free of judgement, shame and embarrassment. Forty-two everyday women have posed for up-close and personal photographs that show their genitals from many different and rarely seen angles. Each woman writes candidly with wit, wisdom, passion, even despair, about her relationship with her vulva.<BR/><BR/>The book brings into light the ins and outs of the female sexual anatomy, and demystifies and challenges the way society views women’s genitals. Heart of the Flower is designed to normalise and celebrate diversity at a time when labial reconstructions have reached an all-time high and women’s body image is at an all-time low.<BR/><BR/>Andrew Barnes and Yvonne Lumsden<BR/><BR/>http://www.facebook.com/pages/Brisbane-Australia/Heart-of-the-Flower/37355251170?ref=s<BR/><BR/>www.heartoftheflower.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-44482200214494646902008-08-20T10:48:00.000+01:002008-08-20T10:48:00.000+01:00"The problem of changing this body culture is the ..."The problem of changing this body culture is the problem of rebuilding the women's movement and its allies on the left."<BR/><BR/>I wonder if we have any very good reason for supposing that a 'body beautiful' culture exists. Certainly there are many commercial images of beautiful bodies around, but you would expect that, people will prefer to look at beautiful things rather than ugly ones, all other things being equal, and this has always been true. There are simply more images of every kind around today and they are cheaper to acquire. To complain that this 'ojectifies' men or women is beside the point, people are objects too whether we like it or not; we can't all have subjective relations with every actress, model or passerby (no matter how much we might want to). But everyday experience seems to contradict the idea that young women (or men) feel pressured into having ever more beautiful bodies or suffer unduly when they fail to meet ideal standards of beauty. In the South of London a sunny day will bring out a huge range of skimpily clad women. It does not seem obvious that women here with non-perfect body shapes feel in any way ashamed or pressured to hide their bodies. The increase in obesity anmong young women can also be interpreted as evidence of growing self-confidence, that young women generally prefer to eat what they like rather than try to appeal to the male gaze. It may not mean that, but we have no good reason for rejecting that interprtation in favour of any other, as far as I can see, and, anecdotally, young women strike me as far more sexually confident than they were when I was young.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-22905639305079519712008-08-19T22:44:00.000+01:002008-08-19T22:44:00.000+01:00John, porn and fashion are not agentless, but neit...John, porn and fashion are not agentless, but neither is porn and fashion the sum total of those who consume it. Unfortunately it's too late for me to start writing about structure and agency and the Marxist view on it. But I will say any analysis that misses out the interlinked backdrop of male privilege, the commodification of sex, the porn industry, the cosmetic industry's pursuit for new markets and how they encourage a range of gendered behaviours is a very incomplete analysis.<BR/><BR/>Adam, on a body positive culture I don't think it will gain much ground in the absence of a more visible and effective women's movement. For example, I think it was on <A HREF="http://splinteredsunrise.wordpress.com" REL="nofollow">Splintered Sunrise</A> where an interesting observation about 70s porn was made. Whatever one's opinion of pornography may be, the discussion talked about how female performers were more representative of "ordinary" women than the kinds of models that populate mainstream porn today. This, some argued, was the symptomatic of the strength of the women's movement and the success it had had in challenging the dominant 'body beautiful'. The problem of changing this body culture is the problem of rebuilding the women's movement and its allies on the left.<BR/><BR/>Btw, thanks everyone who's had nice things to say about this post.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-5701496432922213412008-08-19T17:44:00.000+01:002008-08-19T17:44:00.000+01:00Phil BC said “People undergo body modification,...Phil BC said<BR/> “People undergo body modification, including surgery, for all manner of reasons. As <BR/> much as I disagree with Rosie's decision to have her bits sliced apart, I wouldn't deny <BR/> her the right to pursue it. I think it is an error to blanket deny anyone who seeks any <BR/> kind of cosmetic treatment too. Part of what we have to do is help create a more body <BR/> positive culture, which, of course, is easier said than done.”<BR/><BR/>I agree that we need to develop a more positive body culture, though how we go about doing that I don’t know; but, I’m not sure that body culture is the only thing at work here. I get the feeling that it’s more a case of people wanting to be the same… being afraid of individuality, a fundamental insecurity about themselves. It’s the same reason why so many women in their early 20’s bear identical arse antlers on their lower backs… it’s funny how the more one hears the word “individuality” trumpeted, the less one sees it. Everyone wears the same corporate brands bought in the same shops, everyone conforms to the norm…<BR/><BR/>… I also agree with you that it is important for us to have the right to make decisions about processes which, though they may have long lasting effects, and even when others may not like them, are OUR decisions. This was what Spanner was all about, and, this is what every person with a serious personal interest in bod mod would tell you.<BR/><BR/>To me, it has always been a question of why is a modification desired… I gained much of my tattooing (I have about 60% of my body covered) before the current craze. For me it was an urge. I didn’t care about how it would be received by other people - I WANTED it. On the other hand, there are those who simply want to fit in… anyone who seeks a permanent modification of any kind for this reason is really going down the wrong path. I suspect that many of them are still going to find things about themselves to be unhappy with.<BR/><BR/>The best thing that these people can do is to develop the courage to resist peer pressure, which for some people, is easier said than done…<BR/><BR/>On the subject of “porn”… we have to decide what we are discussing.<BR/><BR/>John B said... <BR/>“John M's point on porn might fit well with Phil's original point on class.<BR/><BR/>Most men, of all social classes, sometimes masturbate to /real/ porn, in which vaginas are presented in all their glory. But this is a solo activity based around your own sexual preferences.<BR/><BR/>The airbrushed softness of Pirelli calendars, Zoo & Nuts, Page 3 and so on, where women are at their most infantilised, are a significant and *communal* part of working-class male culture - with actual sexual preferences subsumed to social norms.”<BR/><BR/>I agree with this… except that Pirelli calendars, Zoo, Nuts etc. aren’t porn… they are unpleasant, objectifying, and most of all crap, but they are not porn. The interesting thing about porn is that the harder and more explicit it gets, the more authentic it becomes… <BR/><BR/>Jo Christie Smith said... <BR/>“I've overheard young men at my gym talking in a quite gynaecological way about women's vaginas and comparing and contrasting, so no wonder that young women are looking to change themselves to conform to what young men want.<BR/><BR/>I'm a liberal so believe people should be free to do whatever floats their boat as long as they are not harming anybody but I am getting increasingly worried about the over sexualisation and objectification of women's bodies. It cannot be good; it cannot be 'not harming, some women.”<BR/><BR/>I’ve heard young (and not so young) women doing the same thing about male genitalia too… I’ve also heard them comparing and contrasting hair, noses, pecs, legs and buttocks. Comparing and contrasting is something that human beings do; it is part of out nature. To say that noses can be compared, but that genitalia can’t is to apply a double standard. I don’t mind if any part of my body is compared to anyone else’s… I’m different to other people… the fact that I am different means that I can be compared and contrasted. To see this as a case of men sexualising and objectifying women seems to miss the wider context of a society where all people, male and female, gay, bi and straight, are increasingly objectified. It is another facet of the corporate world. Everything and everyone becomes a product, a unit to be bought and sold, and to buy and be sold to… such is the nature of the commodification of life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-50815674783088590972008-08-19T13:55:00.000+01:002008-08-19T13:55:00.000+01:00This is a great post (I got to this via a link at ...This is a great post (I got to this via a link at the f-word, so thanks for that). <BR/><BR/>I saw the programme and I think the surgeon who saw fit to slice off Rosie's perfectly normal-looking labia should be struck off.<BR/><BR/>I really feel for all these young women whose friends/boyfriends compare every inch of their bodies, including their genitalia, to the images they see in porn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-80574388165936657322008-08-19T13:25:00.000+01:002008-08-19T13:25:00.000+01:00This is a great post.I think there's a real proble...This is a great post.<BR/><BR/>I think there's a real problem with the way women's bodies are portrayed in porn, its increasing availability thanks to t'internet and young men's views of what women's/girls bodies should be like.<BR/><BR/>It wouldn't surprise me at all if a lot of young men for example didn't realise that women had pubic hair.<BR/><BR/>I've overheard young men at my gym talking in a quite gynaecological way about women's vaginas and comparing and contrasting, so no wonder that young women are looking to change themselves to conform to what young men want.<BR/><BR/>I'm a liberal so believe people should be free to do whatever floats their boat as long as they are not harming anybody but I am getting increasingly worried about the over sexualisation and objectification of women's bodies. It cannot be good; it cannot be 'not harming, some women.Jo Christie-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02971979793175012868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-34554079583487350652008-08-19T12:54:00.000+01:002008-08-19T12:54:00.000+01:00John M's point on porn might fit well with Phi...John M's point on porn might fit well with Phil's original point on class.<BR/><BR/>Most men, of all social classes, sometimes masturbate to /real/ porn, in which vaginas are presented in all their glory. But this is a solo activity based around your own sexual preferences.<BR/><BR/>The airbrushed softness of Pirelli calendars, Zoo & Nuts, Page 3 and so on, where women are at their most infantilised, are a significant and *communal* part of working-class male culture - with actual sexual preferences subsumed to social norms.John Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17024263999778310292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-82659774573222404112008-08-19T09:42:00.000+01:002008-08-19T09:42:00.000+01:00"That porn and fashion promote a newly hegemonic p..."That porn and fashion promote a newly hegemonic pubic aesthetic, "<BR/><BR/>The trouble is that this implies that 'porn and fashion' are agentless. But how can we know in which direction the influence is flowing? Perhaps fashion adopts the tandards it does because women and men prfere them? There are, after all, more and less beautiful vaginas, just as there are more and less beautiful eyes, noses and penises. <BR/><BR/>On the porn side, I also wonder how many here have seen much porn. I am no expert (I insist) but from what I have seen womens vaginas are presented in all their glory and are not tidied up much beyond the trivial matter of shaving. At the very soft end of porn, I suppose, there is an emphasis on a certain infantilised look, but that tends to be the kind of porn where women's genitals are very much hidden away. In most porn (it seems to me) women's genitals are pretty spectaculary on display. But I doubt that the good people that post on here spend much time looking at porn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-68291685674014529842008-08-19T08:55:00.000+01:002008-08-19T08:55:00.000+01:00A very intelligent response to a thought provoking...A very intelligent response to a thought provoking programme. Thank you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-2334852507616900892008-08-19T08:54:00.000+01:002008-08-19T08:54:00.000+01:00Good post. I saw the programme itself and was abso...Good post. I saw the programme itself and was absolutely appalled by the whole thing. To be honest, my "girlie-bits" were probably the only part of my body that I've never gven much thought to and never thought that I wanted to change at any point during my life....<BR/><BR/>Anyway, there is an element of truth in Susan's post. Yes Lisa Rogers is a media-savvy woman with an eye for a sexy subject. Just as Dawn Porter did the same with her BBC3 documentaries on trying to become a lesbian etc. And it did dumb down the idea of female genital self-mutilation. BUT it did raise important issues around how women are influenced by men in their lives and the influences of porn on a relationship and on society in general. I find the idea that a woman would believe that she had to have vaginal surgery to "look better down there" appalling, BUT I believe in the personhood of a woman. And the ability of a woman to make a decision about her body and her choice to have surgery. Blasting surgeons out of the country wouldn't address any of the underlying societal problems that vaginoplasty is symbolic of.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04360969160217583490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-33781749769791918312008-08-19T00:43:00.000+01:002008-08-19T00:43:00.000+01:00think the problem is that porn women are all one w...think the problem is that porn women are all one way, and we really dont see a lot of normal vaginas of our friends or anything and the porn is the only real example we have of whats normal, and it just isnt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-87429688863198916562008-08-18T23:25:00.000+01:002008-08-18T23:25:00.000+01:00Cheers C. It's no different here. One of our downm...Cheers C. It's no different here. One of our downmarket celeb gossip glossies, Heat (which, to my shame, I have a not-so-secret penchant for) devotes space to decrying the bodies of super skinny celebrity women. And then the next issue they're off on one about overweight celebrities. I find the hypocrisy pretty sickening to be honest (before anyone asks, I don't actually buy the thing!)<BR/><BR/>Adam, I couldn't agree more, which is why I strongly disagree with Susan. People undergo body modification, including surgery, for all manner of reasons. As much as I disagree with Rosie's decision to have her bits sliced apart, I wouldn't deny her the right to pursue it. I think it is an error to blanket deny anyone who seeks any kind of cosmetic treatment too. Part of what we have to do is help create a more body positive culture, which, of course, is easier said than done. I'd be interested in hearing peoples' thoughts on this.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-32485611900072963132008-08-18T23:11:00.000+01:002008-08-18T23:11:00.000+01:00John, I think we're going to have to agree to disa...John, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. That porn and fashion promote a newly hegemonic pubic aesthetic, it's only a matter of time before more women start turning to surgery as a "solution" to the anxieties likely to result. That's my opinion anyway.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-87047264747443039172008-08-18T20:13:00.001+01:002008-08-18T20:13:00.001+01:00Btw, very interesting post!Btw, very interesting post!Vickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15275560997065901132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-36405464945079813702008-08-18T20:13:00.000+01:002008-08-18T20:13:00.000+01:00Susan's post seems to be an angry and - dare I say...Susan's post seems to be an angry and - dare I say it - self-righteous attempt at not engaging with the issue at hand. Of course these women are victims of society. Rather than just slandering the programme, why not provide an alternative framework in which to view the problem? Throwing around adjectives like "prurient" without any real basis is the sort of reactionary dismissal more usually made by members of the religious establishment. Besides, I'm pretty certain if the makers were intent on a making a titillating take on the subject, they wouldn't have included graphic surgery scenes.<BR/><BR/>If you deny people the right to change their own bodies, what other rights are you going to take away?Vickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15275560997065901132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-27263904324975754822008-08-18T18:25:00.000+01:002008-08-18T18:25:00.000+01:00NO NO NO- people are not "entitled to change th...NO NO NO- people are not "entitled to change their bodies." Why in God's name would anyone want to unless cajoled by the unrealistic demands of asociety which regards the anodyne as the norm.<BR/>This documentary utterly dumbed down the phenomenon of female genital self-mutilation - cut the crap about "The Perfect Vagina." Its protagonist was a young-ish, attractive, middle-class media-savvy woman with a eye for a sexy subject. It was prurient and pathetic. Surgeons who mutilate women in this way should be blasted out of the country - not given the simpering treatment. Trivialisisation and titillatisation of a serious subject.........susan presshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14184296742644071259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-69568069749230304622008-08-18T18:24:00.000+01:002008-08-18T18:24:00.000+01:00NO NO NO- people are not "entitled to change th...NO NO NO- people are not "entitled to change their bodies." Why in God's name would anyone want to unless cajoled by the unrealistic demands of asociety which regards the anodyne as the norm.<BR/>This documentary utterly dumbed down the phenomenon of female genital self-mutilation - cut the crap about "The Perfect Vagina." Its protagonist was a young-ish, attractive, middle-class media-savvy woman with a eye for a sexy subject. It was prurient and pathetic. Surgeons who mutilate women in this way should be blasted out of the country - not given the simpering treatment. Trivialisisation and titillatisation of a serious subject.........susan presshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14184296742644071259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-75405427500601527012008-08-18T18:21:00.000+01:002008-08-18T18:21:00.000+01:00Greer was railing against this 38 years ago in The...Greer was railing against this 38 years ago in The Female Eunuch. Her claim was that men had always found vaginas disgusting, and that they were sanitised - shaved and scented. If correct, this would imply that, far from shaping male desire, porn was a reaction to it.BenSixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13709072280655034213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-33042118785280033172008-08-18T17:50:00.000+01:002008-08-18T17:50:00.000+01:00As a man who has no problem at all with body modif...As a man who has no problem at all with body modification (I am heavily tattooed, my nipples are pierced, my earlobes have been stretched, etc.) I have been concerned for some time about the current bod mod fashion and the way in which people feel coerced into changing their bodies through social pressure.<BR/><BR/>I know several tattooists who have said that there are going to be a lot of unhappy people in a few years time when the current tattooing craze has died down.<BR/><BR/>I would bet good money that quite a few cosmetic surgeons would say the same about this kind of surgery.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-44937212660001172742008-08-18T17:05:00.000+01:002008-08-18T17:05:00.000+01:00Since about 5 years ago USian periodicals have car...Since about 5 years ago USian periodicals have carried these stories too.<BR/><BR/>There is no doubt that pornification is in play and has been since the 80's.<BR/><BR/>What is most negative about this cosmetic drive for perfection is that physical perfection can never be achieved. Thus the drive takes all a woman's time and attention on one hand -- not to mention money -- while keeping her in a state of constant anxiety. Moreover the definition of physical perfection, the very image of it, can change overnight. So this year it includes very large breasts, which the woman has achieved by surgical augmentation. But next year the ideal woman is flat-chested.<BR/><BR/>At some point a woman has to figure out this is a game that has no win in it for her.<BR/><BR/>At least if she expects to do anything else in her life other than work to finance her unachieveable quest for physical perfection as defined by others.<BR/><BR/>A long-time friend writes for hit television shows on the order of "House" and "Smallville." She's very successful. She makes more money in a year than I may see in a lifetime. She spends her money on jewelry, not on on physical perfection, because, with the nearly 24/7 on the job demanded by a season of writing, getting out samples and submissions to be ready for the next year's round of looking for work -- she has no time for this.<BR/><BR/>She says, "Everyone's got real life and television mixed up. On television a woman who is really good, an expert at something -- forensics, aviation, scientist -- she's always under 30 and beautiful. Now you and I have lived long enough to know that experts seldom are younger than late 40's, and they aren't beautiful because they're working at their professions and getting expert at them. I'm a hit television writer and I'm not under 30 and I'm overweight -- because I work all the time, and that's how I got to be a hit writer."<BR/><BR/>Love, C.Foxessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06754083123669916994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-71801761720224846552008-08-18T16:13:00.000+01:002008-08-18T16:13:00.000+01:00perfection for me would mean i fit LOLperfection for me would mean i fit LOLAll-Mi-T [Thought Crime] Rawdawgbuffalohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08843040863123899426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-81402182006067144162008-08-18T14:42:00.000+01:002008-08-18T14:42:00.000+01:00Presumably the operations approved by the NHS were...Presumably the operations approved by the NHS were not for cosmetic purposes?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I have a feeling that this is all a bit concocted. There will always be a small number of people who are attracted to strange practices but it can't tell us anything much about the society as a whole. I do think we have to wait for a real trend to show before we let it bother us much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-4366139366354952982008-08-18T12:58:00.000+01:002008-08-18T12:58:00.000+01:00I was hoping to get some figures last night, but c...I was hoping to get some figures last night, but couldn't find any.<BR/><BR/>Here's one set from the USA:<BR/><BR/>"According to statistics from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS), who started tracking statistics for vaginal surgery for the first time in 2005; 1,030 vaginal rejuvenation procedures were performed in 2006 in the USA, a rise of 30% on their 2005 figures. The American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery (ASAPS) also started collating statistics on this procedure as late as 2007 and showed that over 4,500 vaginal rejuvenations were performed in 2007 in the U.S..<BR/> <BR/>No official figures are yet available for the UK, but vaginal surgery is becoming increasingly popular and more available in this country too." <A HREF="http://www.consultingroom.com/Treatment_FAQs/Display.asp?Treatment_Faqs_ID=74&Treatment_Name=Vaginal%20Surgery" REL="nofollow">Source</A><BR/><BR/>I have managed to unearth some from the UK at last:<BR/><BR/>"Over the past two years vaginal surgery has become the fastest growing form of plastic surgery with a 149% increase in NHS approved operations. The exact numbers are unknown (as many of the procedures are carried out privately or even abroad) but in 2004-05 800 labial reductions were carried out on the NHS more than a doubling of the figure of six years earlier. Labia reduction requested purely for cosmetic reasons and carried out in the private sector have increased by 300%." (Written Aug 2008) <A HREF="http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/0-9/4health/body/sur_designer.html" REL="nofollow">Source</A><BR/><BR/>Thing is John, should we really reserve our worries until thousands of women of having the operation every year? I think not.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-31250282350092877402008-08-18T12:05:00.000+01:002008-08-18T12:05:00.000+01:00Before we get too worked up about it, do we have a...Before we get too worked up about it, do we have any figures to contextualise what 'increasing numbers of women' having such operations means? Is it really a significant trend or just a bit of TV prurience dressed up as social concern, I wonder.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com