tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post4739036749601186158..comments2024-03-29T07:14:55.029+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: Against a Tory/Labour Brexit CoalitionPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-39438316405509819322017-07-13T16:49:54.670+01:002017-07-13T16:49:54.670+01:00“Oh wait Yvette Cooper said we should do and she&#...“Oh wait Yvette Cooper said we should do and she's part of the Labour Right that means what she said was wrong. “<br /><br />You should be aware that Phil was a supporter of Yvette Cooper and campaigned for her during the labour leadership election,, probably justified with some guff about lesser evilism or some such Shiite. Maybe flowered up in Gramscian language or something.<br /><br />Luckily the damage done by new labour who are utterly complicit in everything from ISIS, the destruction of a number of nations to Grenfell Towers and anti trade union laws was too great for most genuine leftists to countenance.<br /><br />I know Phil has now seen the light but I hope he wakes up in a hot sweat every night shaking at the thought of Yvette Cooper winning that election. And I hope that guilt/horror stays with him until his dying days.<br /><br />Not that I am bitter or anything. I am actually quite a nice guy.<br /><br />Though I am disappointed to see the UKIP right supporter speedy is still fit to type.<br /><br />I can at least hope that somewhere right now Howard Fuller is self harming at the thought of the anti Zionist Corbyn team in power. I guess if he isn’t self harming he will be trying to whip up an anti Semitism is the single biggest threat to humanity in Britain today frenzy. And if he is self harming then at least Corbyn will properly fund mental health services. Though personally if I were taking a call from Fuller I would direct him toward the nearest railway bridge.<br /><br />Happy Christmas everyone!<br />BCFGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-73861245045742873972017-07-13T12:07:27.377+01:002017-07-13T12:07:27.377+01:00I see that the Brexit bores are out in force here,...I see that the Brexit bores are out in force here, then.<br /><br />Show me somebody who claims that "Labour/Corbyn are fanatically in favour of Hard Brexit" or "Labour/Tory positions on Brexit are identical" and I will show you.......a liar. Simple as that.<br /><br />These statements are very easily disprovable, so people persisting with them ultimately only embarrass themselves. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-2760618345470239842017-07-13T08:54:20.105+01:002017-07-13T08:54:20.105+01:00differences between Tories and socialists can'...differences between Tories and socialists can't reduced to 'tribalism'. The issue is values. Similarly 'left - right spat.<br />I voted 'remain' not because I am in favour of the EU with its inherent and increasingly apparent democratic deficit. I voted against the carbival of reactiThe on I feared if the Brexiteers prevailed. I did not think the left was strong enough to resist it. The situation is different now. The unelectable has become transformed in the public perception. We have advanced beyond my expectations and that advance has been fuelled by the engagement with the political process that honesty and commitment brings. <br />Welfare, the NHS, acccess to housing, education and everything that makes life worth living for working people will not be saved by the EU. In fact trades deals could hamper the ability of governments to intervene in economic activity.<br />Leaving the detailed argument aside for a moment, the initiative of Umuna and his allies puts the EU above all the social issues that got him and his chums elected. Alliances with Tories however personable are not going to solve the burning issues and are going to set back progress towards a just society. <br />It is hardly relevant to call out the right of the Labour Party as cynical and self serving. Even if they were honest and not seeking space to sharpen their knives, they are wrong. Of course it is only right to acknowledge there are many people who are perfectly sincere in the belief that the EU is a force for good. It is, however, not an agent of significant social change.<br />Social justice is more important than the EU for working people in the UK, mainland Europe and the global south.Doug Holtonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-38692025718020674572017-07-13T08:47:36.961+01:002017-07-13T08:47:36.961+01:00The problem here is the notion that somehow Labour...The problem here is the notion that somehow Labour can be insulated from responsibility for the negative consequences of Brexit if it goes ahead.<br /><br />If Brexit is a disaster, which it will be unless we get some kind of "soft Brexit" EFTA/EEA arrangement, and Labour has done nothing other than knock off some of the rough edges then it will deservedly get as much of the blame as the Tories. Out new found support, which is mainly from younger age groups, is likely to desert us as they see their future prospects trashed, their freedom of movement taken away. <br /><br />So yes, there would be big risks for Labour in working with the government on Brexit, and I'm not advocating it, but there are still risks for Labour in maintaining its current strategy. <br /> <br /><br />andrew adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196332706764660436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-63483713850956670782017-07-12T21:14:41.828+01:002017-07-12T21:14:41.828+01:00@Dave Cohen
I know hilariously Phil was slagging...@Dave Cohen <br /><br />I know hilariously Phil was slagging off Chuka Ummunna over his stance on the SM and know he's saying we shouldn't cooperate with them on Brexit, So what's caused this U-turn. Oh wait Yvette Cooper said we should do and she's part of the Labour Right that means what she said was wrong. <br /><br />Even though Phil is happy to defend Jeremy's stance on hard brexit.Jonathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-23865242121699315162017-07-12T16:09:04.877+01:002017-07-12T16:09:04.877+01:00Deselect Chuka. Deselect Yvette.Deselect Chuka. Deselect Yvette.Shai Masothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452453462950704943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-79673876854846410592017-07-12T15:47:28.306+01:002017-07-12T15:47:28.306+01:00Tribalism is not what got us here in the first pla...Tribalism is not what got us here in the first place - Toryism is (along with a few other things, not least a lack of tribalism from senior Labour figures in opposing Toryism). The best thing Labour can do for 'the country' (which is to say, the interests of the majority of the population) is to oppose Toryism tooth-and-nail and hopefully bury it at the next election. Everything Labour does should be subordinated to that goal, as Phil says. Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-65605759466388123722017-07-12T10:32:45.245+01:002017-07-12T10:32:45.245+01:00Depends what you mean by Tory/Brexit coalition. Th...Depends what you mean by Tory/Brexit coalition. This is effectively the route we are already going down. As Farage, Hannan and many in my local party keep reminding me, both party manifestoes called for a clean Brexit. You may mock the Chuka/Soubry alliance, but the 450+ MPs who would honestly prefer no Brexit at all is a powerful collective. <br /><br />I'm glad to see though that people like Manuel Cortes are coming round to the idea that there is still everything to play for, and despite 'the will of the people' there may yet be a way to steer through this mess. It also makes it a lot harder for the likes of Owen Jones to turn this into a left-right spat. Dave Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06731571890990560373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-18234001891289060452017-07-12T10:06:59.871+01:002017-07-12T10:06:59.871+01:00No, not likely to be a high water mark for these t...No, not likely to be a high water mark for these <a href="https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/labour-and-21st-century-class-politics.html" rel="nofollow">two</a> <a href="https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/are-tories-in-terminal-decline.html" rel="nofollow">reasons</a>.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-64233339749761505042017-07-12T07:45:52.385+01:002017-07-12T07:45:52.385+01:00Incidentally, am i alone in thinking the election ...Incidentally, am i alone in thinking the election may have been a high-water mark for Labour? Call me Casandra but when again are the Tories going to be so shit? Speedynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-58831932367169124612017-07-12T07:44:11.544+01:002017-07-12T07:44:11.544+01:00Yes. Obviously, it's a trap - they want to sha...Yes. Obviously, it's a trap - they want to share blame for the mess they've made. <br /><br />However - "not in our interest" should not be confused with the country's interest. Tribalism is what got us here in the first place. <br /><br />Also, Labour is unclear where they stand - so they want to leave the customs union and single market? Why? And how is that workers Brexit? They garnered votes in the election not only from the young but also from people who supported remain and who would support a Norway option, for example. And what exactly is their alternative?<br /><br />It is foreseeable that this cross-party group may act to save the UK from both the Tory and the Labour Party. Not losing the election appeared to have changed everything, but it has not changed Tory intransigence and Labour's ambivalence on Europe. <br /><br />Speedynoreply@blogger.com