tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post4306272610475458882..comments2024-03-27T09:14:27.496+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: Corbynism and the Second ReferendumPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-77571837027962620012019-06-16T11:19:21.127+01:002019-06-16T11:19:21.127+01:00Belated reply to Eric re: the alt-right. The thing...Belated reply to Eric re: the alt-right. The thing to remember is when it comes to socialised workers, there is a *tendency* for them to be more socially liberal. A tendency means not all socialised workers are. In much the same way how what was the "traditional" working class tended to vote Labour, but not all did (indeed, I come from the section that did not).<br /><br />Can the alt-right be explained in terms of strata? Probably. I suspect a lot of this movement has an over representation of people from petit bourgeois and declassed backgrounds, as per classical populist and fascist movements, and the fact it's a very male movement is not without significance too. You have to think about how masculinity is in flux and how the world does not fit the expectations a standard white, male upbringing socialisation process inculcates. Obviously work needs to be done on this, but those are my hunches.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-76187496672217883102019-06-05T13:24:10.708+01:002019-06-05T13:24:10.708+01:00I think you miss the point a bit here - Brexit is ...I think you miss the point a bit here - Brexit is not just an issue, it is a new alignment. <br /><br />Since the alternative of socialism effectively died in 1989 (and not just because of the fall of the USSR but the hegemony of global capitalism) the left has no longer seemed 'fit for purpose'. The argument was 'lost' and so it was just different versions of the same thing - as you have often pointed out, Blairism is just soft Thatcherism. <br /><br />However, with Brexit, there is a real choice again - internationalism, shared sovereignty and (broad) social justice of the EU v market-ravaged isolationism of WTO rules. <br /><br />It may not be a choice you like or agree with, but it is THE choice and a very clear one. It is THE choice seen by the electorate - the fact that 'you' ie, the Labour leadership cannot see it (nor can they see that they are on the wrong side) is neither here nor there. Labour has become like the Liberal Party of the 1920s - it has lost its purpose and constituency. <br /><br />Just because working class voters vote leave does not make them right, just as voting Tory never made them right - Labour should stand for what is in their best interests if it is to have any point whatsoever. Speedynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-86155332204289623432019-06-04T21:35:55.804+01:002019-06-04T21:35:55.804+01:00Two lefties have now written that Corbyn should “p...Two lefties have now written that Corbyn should “pivot” and back a second referendum. <br /><br />But neither has written that Corbyn and many other lefties were wrong in the first place to back the lunacy of the Bennite-Lexit project. Or that to argue to remain in EU also MUST MEAN to work for a major reform of the EU.<br /> <br />Instead, changing course is seen as a matter of mere electoral pragmatism for Labour. <br /><br />++++++++++++++++++++++<br />One has written: <br /><br />The main reason to change course would be this: if it seems clear that Labour can’t win back the support lost to the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, Plaid Cymru, or the SNP at the next general election by any other route. That’s a valid consideration, and a difficult judgement call to make.<br /><br />But if the Labour leadership does now pivot towards the second-referendum camp, it should be seen in a realistic light, as a major setback for the Corbyn project, and for any prospects of meaningful political change. It’s not a choice that should be made lightly, without taking full account of its pitfalls.<br /><br />++++++++++++++++++<br />The other has written: <br /><br />If Corbynism is to realise its promise and be the vehicle by which immaterial labour sets about reworking society in its image, the party must shift to a soft Brexit plus confirmatory referendum position. It's not something I particularly like, having fulminated against it previously and it will cause us a great deal of difficulty in some leave-voting seats, but we're in no easy option territory. In such a situation, our best bet is to go with the wisdom of our crowd. <br />+++++++++++++<br /><br />PS: I was talking to a passionate young Momentum supporter the other day. She said that she was getting very depressed by the Corbyn infallibility project. <br /><br />http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2019/06/corbynism-and-second-referendum.html<br /><br />https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/05/brexit-european-parliament-election-labour-party<br />+++++++++++++++++<br /><br />Alan Story <br />Alan Storyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07335333178667789651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-68353768013538033402019-06-04T09:07:21.314+01:002019-06-04T09:07:21.314+01:00Where, in your opinion, does the alt right phenome...Where, in your opinion, does the alt right phenomenon fit in with the tendency for young immaterial labour to be socially liberal? Do you see this as an expression of a different strata?<br /><br />EricAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-37560740467476015732019-06-03T09:04:38.796+01:002019-06-03T09:04:38.796+01:00Phil,
Thanks for this good articulation of the im...Phil,<br /><br />Thanks for this good articulation of the impact of the rise of the services economy on politics, and the emergence of a different type of working class. It goes a bit further: there is a positive feedback loop between the experience of socialised work and the emergence of “post-materialist” values (cf Inglehart), emphasising autonomy, self-expression, etc, at the expense of “modern” values which were more aligned to the world of manufacturing and emphasise hierarchy, authority, conformity, etc. In fact, the whole values split across Brexit can be read quite convincingly as a values war between post-materialists (now just cresting 50% of the population, by some calculations) and the moderns (just declining below it). I say ‘quite convincingly’ because the research on agree/disagree values questions to Leave and Remain voters suggests a clear values split along these lines.<br /><br />The problem I think Labour has is that it is listening too attentively to MPs such as Lisa Nandy in Leave voting seats. The other research here suggests that Labour voting Leavers are the group most likely to have changed their minds on Brexit, and that Labour Remainers are more passionately convinced of the importance of Remaining, whereas Labour Leavers are less so. (Flipchart Rick has a very good blog post on this). This is one of the effects we saw in the European elections.<br /><br />They are much more likely to respond to arguments about austerity—as you observe in your piece. And the Remainers will be happy with a straight commitment to a clear confirmatory vote, rather than this endless positional nudges. Indeed, given the Withdrawal Agreement seems dead in the water (and is *still* a terrible agreement anyway), and the alternatives appear now to be between No Deal Brexit and Remain, and No Deal is so far from any Labour position on Brexit, itls a fairly simple position to take. The frustration of normally Labour-voting Remainers is that the leadership seem to be the last people in the party to grasp this. Andrew Curryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05593851567827102782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-77157903408520307942019-06-02T23:26:51.606+01:002019-06-02T23:26:51.606+01:00Original article a 'Curates Egg'. Also to...Original article a 'Curates Egg'. Also too lengthy to offer a detailed critique here at this time of night. Suffice it to say the regrettably anonymous commentator claiming to be young has more or less hit the correct keys for me, and I'm definitely not young! BillWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11012463408704392797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-45325958199851149272019-06-02T16:23:58.856+01:002019-06-02T16:23:58.856+01:00"The compromise position of customs union dea..."The compromise position of customs union deal or general election or second referendum, despite being perfectly clear on paper,"<br /><br />Except even on paper its not clear. No Labour spokesperson seems to even know what they mean by Customs Union or how it differs from the Single Market. Even less can they explain how its possible to be in a Customs Union and yet do separate trade deals, or how they could have a seat at this Customs Union without being in the EU!<br /><br />What is worse, the position of Corbyn and others on that, and its relation to when it was no longer possible and a second referendum had to become the option has been stretched to a level of complete absurdity. Its not believable, and the use of semantics around it simply and correct leads everyone to believe that it is just a question of duplicity.Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-31655977379443869612019-06-02T16:18:17.411+01:002019-06-02T16:18:17.411+01:00"And there is precedent for this. Remember Cl..."And there is precedent for this. Remember Cleggmania when, in the enthusiasm of the 2010 leaders' debates, the LibDems powered to second place in the polls? Or, even further back, how the formation of the Social Democratic Party was treated as a blessed relief from two-party politics and topped Westminster voting intention?"<br /><br />Not good examples. In 2010, the Liberals did enough to stop Labour taking most votes, and then formed the coalition with the Tories, that allowed the to to set in. In the 1980's, the SDP again did enough to splinter the Labour vote, and only collapsed, when Thatcher took the country into the Falklands War.<br /><br />If the next Toy Leader treats leaving the EU as another Falklands War, by rallying its troops behind the flag of a planned No Deal Brexit, whilst Labour is still floundering for a decisive position, and still unbelievable in its offering then whether the Liberals and Greens are in a strong enough position to win, or beat Labour is irrelevant, because the anti-Tory vote will be sufficiently split to allow the Tories to get a clear majority.Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-8079798816115265092019-06-02T16:03:37.039+01:002019-06-02T16:03:37.039+01:00I agree with Phil's reasoning and indeed would...I agree with Phil's reasoning and indeed would go farther. Corbyn's Labour was right to accept the result of Cameron's foolish Referendum and has been right to adopt the "complicated" conciliatory stance which the media presents and 'fudge' and lack of policy. Also, despite the Corbyn-haters' accusation that JC is a liar who did not campaign effectively for Remain and who did not vote Remain in the privacy of the referndum-booth, and that JC is a staunch Leaver who abuses his ledaership of the party to affect or enable Brexit, JC's 'complicated' position is STILL justifiable, not least because it shows Labour's concilliatory approach to be sincere. This, in turn, shows Labour to be an intentionally good and honourable agent.<br /><br />Althought honourable, the position did damage Labour's performance in the local government election and the EU Parliamentary election. Nevertheless, Labour was right to adopt the position.<br /><br />It would, though, now be unsustainable and actually counter-productive (and exactly for the reasons Phil describes). The Brexit party and farage's ambitions need us to throw our weight behind a confirmatory vote. Also, I would like my party leader to say that the decision to leave the EU is regrettable and wrong. Austerity. Austerity. Austerity. Austerity. JC should answer every question about brexit with a snarling comment on Tory Austerity and the harm it does people, families, children, women, communities, the economy and our future. <br /><br />Labour needs, as SimonB rightly says above (8.18), to be adopting this position for more than tactical reasons. "What question(s) will be asked? Will it be binding or advisory? Will there be a turnout threshold? Will it be a simple majority again? Of course, the bigger question remains: what will get through parliament?".<br /><br />This is a line that Jeremy Corbyn should enthusiastically take. His Bennite and pro-democratic principles will, once again, be acknowledged, respected and esteemed by the many people who need a strong and popular Labour party.qwertboinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-74823861897208126482019-06-02T14:42:53.435+01:002019-06-02T14:42:53.435+01:00Well apart from the fact that at the moment I thin...Well apart from the fact that at the moment I think I'd rather it was civil servants than ministers pitching for us I agree, and for the record, I'm 66.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-74914739782254768702019-06-02T12:48:02.335+01:002019-06-02T12:48:02.335+01:00Well, I would probably qualify as your younger vot...Well, I would probably qualify as your younger voter who has joined the labour party recently and been to the local meetings, where I have witnessed a lot of ranting but no real questions being asked or no-one really doing anything productive. It's a frustrating sight. I even went to a labour policy meeting thing where I heard the big names speak and was somewhat underwhelmed because this didn't seem to me to be a discussion about the proposals (esp. around encouraging more partnership structures in the economy) which I had read up on with a view to offering ideas. Instead it seemed to just offer a platform for people to tell us their war stories. <br /><br />I see that the leave vote has taken away my freedoms to work and live wherever I want to in the EU - including Ireland (most people seem to forget this) and I am yet to hear what gains there are. It appears that the generations above have once again taken something from my generation and the ones coming and offered only the prospect of cleaning up their mess (e.g. climate change, housing) in exchange. <br /><br />I understand labour's position and you have done a great job in articulating it, but at the end of the day the idea of a "customs union" is a bit of a nonsense, because exports to third countries would not be covered by EU trade agreements but imports would - leaving us at a disadvantage (not huge for goods because the vast majority of our exports go to EU countries) - and that's before you get into our biggest exports not covered by such an arrangement, services. Incidentally, our biggest service sector is retail- before anyone thinks of banking and bankers. <br /><br />What I want from labour is to a) stay in the EU b) reform our democratic system (get rid of the lords, land reform, compulsory voting, PR or STV systems) c) improve infrastructure massively outside of London and d) shift power from London to regions. In that way I believe the EU will disappear as an issue. We need to engage more with the EU not less (we send civil servants when other countries send ministers to meetings) - austerity is currently baked into the economic thinking of the EU in the form of neolibralism and we should do all we can to change that...for everyone's sake. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-45892350418268966972019-06-02T10:14:24.194+01:002019-06-02T10:14:24.194+01:00You are fixated on the Labour Party as the Party o...You are fixated on the Labour Party as the Party of Labour.<br />2017 was where the Party attracted once again the educated, logical, caring bourgeoisie that utterly reject the passionate bigotry of the Tories.<br />They go where they see the most likelihood of policies that they think will make the UK a more tolerant better place.<br />They are not fighting capital as such, will not vote for a mush of triangles if there is a better bait, and are currently lost to Labour if they think they can successfully fight Fahrage populism elsewhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-14782044673817196332019-06-02T09:12:19.439+01:002019-06-02T09:12:19.439+01:00'the party cannot reduce itself entirely to on...'the party cannot reduce itself entirely to one side of the Brexit schism'. Sometimes you have a binary choice. So the Labour party can try to appease the Brexit party or it can discover a backbone. <br />The idea that its current position is a general election position is just laughable. The EU have got a deal ready to go, they say they won't reopen it, I have never heard anything other than a desire for more unicorns from Labour. Indeed their current position is that they approve of May's deal if some way of binding future parliaments could be found to protect the environment and workers rights so that they could support some Tory legislation on the subject. Abject in conception, utterly lacking in self-belief, and impossible to deliver in the British constitutional system. The only restraint possible on future parliaments is membership of the EU, which is why it is hated by the right.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-2102636921150772432019-06-02T08:18:16.366+01:002019-06-02T08:18:16.366+01:00Talk of a second ref is easy. If it’s to be more t...Talk of a second ref is easy. If it’s to be more than just an electoral tactic then surely we need to consider the details? What question(s) will be asked? Will it be binding or advisory? Will there be a turnout threshold? Will it be a simple majority again? Of course, the bigger question remains: what will get through parliament?SimonBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-34384708918277169622019-06-02T00:24:25.195+01:002019-06-02T00:24:25.195+01:00Putting barriers between the UK and the EU will sl...Putting barriers between the UK and the EU will slowly but inexorably impoverish the British population over time. <br /><br />Even products exclusively produced in Britain that rely exclusively on domestically sourced inputs will get more expensive because they won't have the same advantages of scale as before to the extent exports into the EU are reduced<br /><br />The opposition of younger people to Brexit is highly rational. <br /><br />A big concern for the Britain should be that the ever increasing wage differential will start to cause younger Brits to start emigrating to Germany, Sweden, or Ireland. The UK can't really risk a demographic crisis with such low productivity, and Brexit will reduce productivity further.<br /><br /><br />1729torushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09262372962990418135noreply@blogger.com