tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post7295148407765475131..comments2024-03-19T09:00:56.265+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: Branch Meeting: Fascism and Anti-FascismPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-36938001766973143942009-03-09T15:40:00.000+00:002009-03-09T15:40:00.000+00:00I would agree that the BNP do enjoy a certain mono...I would agree that the BNP do enjoy a certain monopoly on the 'right' but there are certainly other parties that are of a distinctive 'right' nature such as the UKIP (and there are various parties of the lunatic fringe too) so it is not that cut and dried to say that the BNP enjoy complete hegemony. I think it is more a case that the BNP represent more comprehensively what such voters want.<BR/><BR/>I am not too sure about the culamative / speculative near electoral equity you claim though!<BR/><BR/>But in response to your comment to Robert - I really do not know with what realistic base you claim that the BNP 'don't give a fig about any workers' - the BNP are not financed or funded by big business and so have no obligations to fulfil nor does the genuine nationalist philosophy cater for any mistreatment of its people; indeed quite the opposite - the interests of its people are the only reason for the existence of the party. All artificial barriers such as class and so-called status are superfluous to nationalists and only the abilities of its people would determine their position in life.<BR/><BR/>In fact some of the BNP's economic policies are too radically socialist for my liking:<BR/><BR/>"{...} To that end we will restore our economy and land to British ownership. We also call for preference in the job market to be given to native Britons. We will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants.<BR/>Finally we will seek to give British workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates by encouraging worker shareholder and co-operative schemes"<BR/><BR/>They actually go further in some documents stating that they will reform factories in co-operatives, renationalise pretty much every medium and large industry and even nationalise or directly control the banks.<BR/><BR/>For me these are steps too far - I agree with profit share and even workers management schemes and perhaps limited renationalisation but not the wholesale nationalisation of industry and the other steps that stifle entreprenal freedom and healthy competition.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-63436658837686901592009-03-08T18:19:00.000+00:002009-03-08T18:19:00.000+00:00Good idea - I'll take that one up, unless one of m...Good idea - I'll take that one up, unless one of my comrades are reading and fancy giving it a stab.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-13268288012096840712009-03-08T16:38:00.000+00:002009-03-08T16:38:00.000+00:00agreed Phil,but as we can see even from the above ...agreed Phil,<BR/><BR/>but as we can see even from the above exchange that a few people get taken in by neo-fascist groupings, such as the BNP, when they play a bit of modern Strasserism<BR/><BR/>maybe one of your comrades could prepare a small branch lecture on "the pull of Strasserism, class, rebellion "?<BR/><BR/>as the lure of this strain of neo-fascism is often overlooked.ModernityBloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-71993438595144702552009-03-08T12:54:00.000+00:002009-03-08T12:54:00.000+00:00Btw Robert, I've added your blog to my blogroll.If...Btw Robert, I've added your blog to my blogroll.<BR/><BR/>If you're looking for a new home you can do far worse than giving us <A HREF="http://www.socialistparty.org.uk" REL="nofollow">a look</A>.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-14020196011562737052009-03-08T12:50:00.000+00:002009-03-08T12:50:00.000+00:00I can understand why you're thinking that way Rob,...I can understand why you're thinking that way Rob, but you know the BNP's true character, you know they don't give a fig about any workers, whether white, black or indigo. If there's some sort of socialist alternative in your area you should certainly support them.<BR/><BR/>At the Euro elections, provided it stands, I will be voting (and hopefully campaigning if my work stays on schedule!) for the RMT/left initiative. If not it will probably be the Greens or Labour - I haven't really thought about it. <BR/><BR/>For the next general, if Stoke SP doesn't stand I will be putting a peg on my nose and voting Labour - if only to keep the BNP out.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-66837861155921094872009-03-08T11:44:00.000+00:002009-03-08T11:44:00.000+00:00The fact is for 40 years Labour has been my party,...The fact is for 40 years Labour has been my party, the party which my great grand father was part of my grand father, my father, and my self my brothers my uncles , they all belonged to the Labour movement, then bang New Labour New idea's for the middle class, Brown apologized for his ten pence tax blunder, yes but it still came in and is now part of our tax structure, he knew dam well what he was doing, Welfare reforms to lower the costs of benefits.<BR/><BR/>I actually do not care about immgrants to me they are mostly people trying to better themselves , good luck to them, until companies start misusing the law to bring in people on lower wages to take jobs off people here.<BR/><BR/>But if you asked me now who I will vote for at the next election I do not know, I do know it will not be New Labour or the Tories, so the BNP have a good chance I will vote for them. will they win this next election or any election of course not, but then again New Labour are hitting immigrants now so why not vote for whom I believe will get rid of this dam so called socialist partyRoberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05186557603493331701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-88234059048147617602009-03-08T11:22:00.000+00:002009-03-08T11:22:00.000+00:00Sentinel, I learned early on on the doorsteps that...Sentinel, I learned early on on the doorsteps that character assassination doesn't go down well, whoever the target of it is. If you don't keep it political then you risk being lumped in with the yah-boo-sucks of mainstream politics. <BR/><BR/>Regards our electoral support, you have to keep in mind two things. Firstly the BNP has the advantage of hegemony on the far right. The majority of organised fascists can be found in its ranks. As you know the left outside the Labour party is scattered among a hodgepodge of groups. No one group has the sort of dominance on the left the BNP enjoys on the far right. If they were to be combined though that would put the far left on about 16-20 councillors - not counting localised independent groups like Wigan's Community Action Party and Barrow's Socialist Peoples Party. And then there's Galloway as well - so 16-20 councillors plus one MP is not an order of magnitude beneath the BNP's tally. And that's without counting the Greens as well, the majority of whom see themselves as a eft wing party.<BR/><BR/>The second point is that nowadays the BNP is primarily an electoralist organisation. As far as I know Stoke BNP's activity consists of regular leaflet drops and supporting the work of its councillors. My organisation, the Socialist Party, is very different. Elections are only a major concern for a minority of branches. My branch focuses on street activity, trade union and student/youth work, solidarity actions, public meetings and what have you. Elections are almost an afterthought, tbh.<BR/><BR/>There is one area election-wise where the SP completely outclasses the BNP, and that's elected positions in the labour movement. We have 20 plus lay representatives on the NECs of trade unions and that, as far as our party is concerned, is more significant to our fortunes than having 20 elected councillors up and down the country. And who knows how many elected shop stewards and TU branch committee members we have?<BR/><BR/>So yes, we do have a base. But the left doesn't take it for granted - it's something I take very seriously, both in Britain and abroad as the 30 posts tagged <A HREF="http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/search/label/Strategy" REL="nofollow">strategy</A> demonstrate.<BR/><BR/>Re: the mayor situation - Stoke politics have long been interesting! I'm thinking about writing something later on - we'll see.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-30601301157164300562009-03-08T10:58:00.000+00:002009-03-08T10:58:00.000+00:00Cheers, Ad. Re: the base of Hitler and Mussolini I...Cheers, Ad. Re: the base of Hitler and Mussolini I'd have to disagree. Yes, there were more middle class than the present day BNP but also their ranks were swelled with the ranks of the unemployed and particularly ex-services. I don't have the full break down with me but in a couple of weeks I'll be running a seminar on the pre-1933 Nazi movement. I'll put the demographics up on here afterwards. <BR/><BR/>Mod, no problem there - whatever we think about the BNP's prospects they have too much influence already, and that requires a consistent left wing response.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-89303880102316473232009-03-07T14:44:00.000+00:002009-03-07T14:44:00.000+00:00And things like this underline the intrinsic corru...And things like this underline the intrinsic corruption of the main parties everywhere, but is most likely the final nail in the coffin for the establishment parties at Stoke:<BR/><BR/><BR/>"A TOP councillor arrested on suspicion of corruption in public office has resigned from the Conservative Party.<BR/>Councillor Roger Ibbs has tendered his resignation from the national party less than a week after being arrested"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/news/Corruption-arrest-councillor-resigns/article-750400-detail/article.html<BR/><BR/>"The Labour Mayor of Stoke-on-Trent has been arrested as part of a police inquiry into alleged corruption. <BR/><BR/>Mark Meredith was detained at dawn yesterday and questioned by detectives from Staffordshire Police. This followed the arrest last week of a senior Conservative councillor, Roger Ibbs, over corruption allegations."<BR/><BR/>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5857569.ece<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Meridith had already showed his contempt for democracy and the people of Stoke by refusing to allow elected representatives onto the cross party executive; if this corruption allegation is proven then it can safely be concluded that another reason for his arrogant and anti-democratic stance is that he knew the BNP would not go along with this Banana Republic corruption.<BR/><BR/>Either ways, Stoke just got much more interesting.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-15528962362812267742009-03-07T00:07:00.000+00:002009-03-07T00:07:00.000+00:00I would broadly agree with some of what you have t...I would broadly agree with some of what you have to say here, primarily the fact that the toxic character assassination and smear tactic campaigns generally waged by the extreme left are unproductive, indeed most often counter-productive, and that the main parties are carbon copies of each other (with either a serving a record of failure or a previous history of failure.)<BR/><BR/>But the simple fact is that many more people are going over to the BNP because they agree with their policies in the main: Because the economic policies of consecutive governments of both left and right have left British workers in dire straits; because the great multicultural experimental failure that Britain has now become has never had permission or mandate from the British people and many, many feel displaced and disposed in their own homeland; because an overwhelming majority of British people are concerned about the ever growing Islamification of these Isles (and Europe); because an overwhelming majority of people are very concerned about crime and want something realistic and tangible done about it, not empty PC rhetoric - and so many other reasons that no other party addresses.<BR/><BR/>That is why; that is the root; and unless viable alternatives are offered to allay these concerns - and they will not be you or the other parties- it will continue. <BR/><BR/>It is widely anticipated that the BNP will land at least one MEP in the forthcoming elections, and if so, the parties emergence into the mainstream, and into an emerging opposition will strengthen enormously.<BR/><BR/>But besides all of this, why do you think that anyone would realistically listen to your party? I mean how many elected representatives do you have?<BR/><BR/>You say "What is it about an organisation that only has 56 councillors, 100 parish councillors and a member of the London Assembly" - but how many people have placed their trust in your party and elected representatives to office?<BR/><BR/>Because without that trust and base a political party is essentially defunct - and that is something you might be well better off strategizing about.The Sentinelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407669804421969164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-69230274360393859312009-03-06T23:30:00.000+00:002009-03-06T23:30:00.000+00:00Luther Blisset,Most of the people on the list don'...Luther Blisset,<BR/><BR/>Most of the people on the list don't have their occupation listed. Only those who have jobs which may be useful to the party, such as those with experience doing 'security' work, are listed.<BR/><BR/>In fact, less than 5% had an occupation noted next to their names. Not really a representative sample to draw a conclusion on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-88017178274917766192009-03-06T23:05:00.000+00:002009-03-06T23:05:00.000+00:00In response to the first comment, if we look at th...In response to the first comment, if we look at the BNP membership list that was disclosed late last year, we find that actually a significant portion of the BNP membership are middle class. There was a neat little pie chart in SW on this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-47867827206521557352009-03-06T19:22:00.000+00:002009-03-06T19:22:00.000+00:00Phil,you might do well to emphasise with your comr...Phil,<BR/><BR/>you might do well to emphasise with your comrades how the French NF was small in the 1970s, and recently was powerful enough to have a stab at the French Presidency, all in 25+ years<BR/><BR/>they only need to reach a critical mass and it will be very hard to stop the neo-fascists<BR/><BR/>we should never underestimate themModernityBloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-80760006658285872572009-03-06T18:01:00.000+00:002009-03-06T18:01:00.000+00:00very good report phil. though im not sure i'd agre...very good report phil. <BR/><BR/>though im not sure i'd agree that the bnp are necessarily 'fishing in the same pool' as the classical fascist parties in germany and italy - of course hitler and mussolini gained support from sections of the working classes but their base was the middle layers and the parties were built by appealing to the middle classes. I'd argue this was due to the relative strength of reformist and social democratic forces in the pre-war period - meaning the majority of the working class had no need for the ideas of fascism.<BR/><BR/>the bnp(and many other european fascists unfortunately) today have simply turned their focus onto the pool of disillusioned former labour voters - at this stage they are if anything a little too right wing for the middle class( who are generally more likely to vote tory than workers). and so an extremely unstable electoral base among the most desparate layers of workers and the unemployed has become the foundations of the bnp's profile and growth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com