tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post2812783118065608142..comments2024-03-29T09:14:53.583+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: Should Labour Stand in Richmond?Philhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-53373318486287362332016-10-29T21:10:35.701+01:002016-10-29T21:10:35.701+01:00"but the lesson to be learned is not that the..."but the lesson to be learned is not that they are Tories, but the Labour Party has lost their support. It's not rocket science."<br /><br />But the AB's have always supported the Tories in large numbers speedy. <br /><br />That's the point Doh!<br /><br />But is glad that that well known campaigner for the working class and who thinks Corbyn's supporters are all Middle class should be calling for Labour to pander to the upper Middle classes.<br /><br />You can't make this stuff up!<br />BCFGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-10863343990257289372016-10-28T20:02:02.025+01:002016-10-28T20:02:02.025+01:00«With ABs - the social class with the highest turn...«With ABs - the social class with the highest turnout (75%), defined as “households with higher and intermediate managerial, administrative, professional occupations”, the Tories captured 45% of the vote,»<br /><br />These people derive a considerable part of their income and wealth from capital and inheritance, not their labour. They own one or more houses, they own professional certificates, they own professional practices, they own largish pension accounts, they "own" safe jobs. They are not baristas or factory workers who sell their labour raw and by the hour.<br />In general also they are the "trusties" of the business or property owning class.<br />Blissexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-36625885281118605352016-10-28T08:38:59.318+01:002016-10-28T08:38:59.318+01:00Nice analysis, though BCFG appears to miss the poi...Nice analysis, though BCFG appears to miss the point by a country mile - yes the Tory's garnered a larger slice of the AB vote, but the lesson to be learned is not that they are Tories, but the Labour Party has lost their support. It's not rocket science. Speedynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-68942417458438642262016-10-27T18:22:45.927+01:002016-10-27T18:22:45.927+01:00Well as you know I'm normally Mr Nuance but fo...Well as you know I'm normally Mr Nuance but for me this is really clear cut: May has a tiny majority, here's a chance to cut it by more and make it harder for her to push through her effectively racist version of Brexit. I live in a Lab/LD constituency, there's no love lost between the parties, but there's not a lot of difference between our feelings about the EU, and fighting the Tories on this together we are stronger. <br /><br />This isn't about going into coalition with the Lib Dems, it's about uniting on matters of huge national interest. The Tories are blundering their way towards a poorly negotiated Brexit that will see us worse off, and the only people gaining will be the xenephobes. So no, it isn't LibDems versus fascists (although Goldsmith's campaign against Khan came close to being that), but it is still a big fight.Dave Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11418208431136545980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-89412044951515222592016-10-27T17:02:20.070+01:002016-10-27T17:02:20.070+01:00"I'm using 'proletariat' in the o..."I'm using 'proletariat' in the old, old sense of people who sell their labour power for a living."<br /><br />It has never been this simplistic and if it was then the Tories could easily be described as a proletarian party.<br /><br />To be honest describing Labour as a proletarian party is a stretch to say the least. Someone is chuckling!<br /><br />But just to give the facts, <br /><br />With ABs - the social class with the highest turnout (75%), defined as “households with higher and intermediate managerial, administrative, professional occupations”, the Tories captured 45% of the vote, and Labour 26%. In other words those who sell their Labour power for a lot of money!<br /><br />Labour only had a clear lead over the Conservatives among voters in social class DE (the “semi-skilled and unskilled manual occupations, unemployed and lowest grade occupations”).<br /><br />Clearly the old old way of describing class is way way inferior and inadequate than the modern bourgeois way of describing class!<br /><br />Now the question is, why would the Yvette Cooper loving centre left be using such an inadequate method of defining class?<br />BCFGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-546617924464156942016-10-27T16:21:30.443+01:002016-10-27T16:21:30.443+01:00«Labour [ .... ] is rather a proletarian party [ ....«Labour [ .... ] is rather a proletarian party [ ... ] of people who sell their labour power for a living.»<br /><br />That's agreeable, but there is a somewhat difficult situation: many «people who sell their labour power for a living» seem to think that they are primarily property owners, and only secondarily they sell their labour. In part because their income comes primarily from property capital gains, in part because their labour is well rewarded primarily because they own as property some kind of professional credential. For example if you are a chartered accountant the real basis of your income is not your labour, but the credential that makes you so. It is not a tradable property, but it is still property that makes you money.<br /><br />New Labour/Progress wants to represent the interest of those voters. That is a plausible aim because "pure" «people who sell their labour» are a significant number but still rather a minority of voters; but Progress/New Labour seem to want to represent _only_ their interests, while taking the vote of "pure" «people who sell their labour». Still Giles Radice's "Southern Discomfort" is a real political problem.<br />Blissexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-64081633297542987782016-10-27T13:06:15.129+01:002016-10-27T13:06:15.129+01:00Yes we must stand.
The local CLP has grown consid...Yes we must stand.<br /><br />The local CLP has grown considerably I understand and I'm sure they will be keen to campaign vigorously for their candidate. <br /><br />Unless there are truly exceptional circumstances Labour should put up a candidate at every election, even in constituencies where we have little hope of success.<br /><br />Steve Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-29762383150054071872016-10-27T12:30:37.413+01:002016-10-27T12:30:37.413+01:00"Throwing away the chance to send a signal on..."Throwing away the chance to send a signal on this issue is pissing away the chance to influence an event which will put thousands of "proletariat" jobs in danger. Further, it is an event which will likely change the trajectory of this country permanently and not for the better."<br /><br />We had a referendum on this issue very recently. A pro-EU election victory in an isolated parliamentary seat in an affluent part of London will benefit no-one but the Lib Dems.<br /><br />And why should we support the rehabilitation of the Lib Dems? The Liberal Party had effectively hit a historical dead-end by WWII, and it took a heavy dose of opportunism to transform it into a moderate party of protest by the 1970s and 80s. Entering the coalition represented the abandonment of this position and consequently spelled electoral ruin for them. <br /><br />The argument that membership of the EU prevents economic collapse and saves 'proletarian jobs' proved unconvincing to many in June and is likely to impress few more now. There are many left-wing interests that need to be safeguarded, including workers' rights, free movement and international socialist solidarity, and these are not to be trusted or subordinated to the Lib Dem agenda. Leaving the EU is regrettable but not fascist, and does not compel the formation of an 'unpopular front'. <br />Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-80544243179380897542016-10-27T10:33:22.826+01:002016-10-27T10:33:22.826+01:00Absolutely Labour should stand. Firstly, we need ...Absolutely Labour should stand. Firstly, we need to send a message to those in the party who harbour illusions of some future alliance with the Liberals and other petit-bourgeois forces such as the Greens, and reactionary nationalist forces like Plaid or the SNP.<br /><br />Secondly, what could workers think of a party that just makes cosy electoral deals with a Liberal party that has so recently demonstrated its true reactionary colours throughout the period of the coalition government?<br /><br />The point is not to simply try to do down the Tories by facilitating the ambitions of some other reactionary outfit, but to oppose all of them, and present a socialist, or at least radical social-democratic alternative at every opportunity, whether we have a chance of winning or not. Its the same reason, socialists do not propose a vote for conservative Gaullist candidates in French Presidential elections, in the second round against the Front National.<br /><br />With more than half a million members and still growing, there is no reason for Labour to ally with anyone. It should be the progressive force in all spheres of life. If others want to tag along behind that is their choice, but they can expect no right to participate in decision making in any such ventures, for example, in opposing racism, on environmentalism, opposition to war and so on. That applies particularly to all of those disruptive left sects that represent less than nothing.<br /><br />Labour should keep its distance from all of these sect fronts such as Stop The War, Stand Up To racism and so on, and simply establish its own campaigning activities on all those issues. If anyone else wants a say on them, they should become Labour Party members, and participate in the internal democratic process like everyone else.<br /><br />But, for the same reason there is no Labour should engage in shoddy electoral pacts with anyone. Our aim should be to win in every seat. One immediate basis for that is amongst the progressive 48%, that voted against a return to reactionary nationalism and insularity, and against making concessions to bigotry.<br /><br />Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-71925356485175574462016-10-27T10:20:27.243+01:002016-10-27T10:20:27.243+01:00The electorate will decide, the fact that Zac is s...The electorate will decide, the fact that Zac is still a Tory may incline them to vote LibDem. As for "Labour isn't a workers' party with a bourgeois leadership as per the Lenin" I waver a bit, in relation to Momentum it is exactly that, created by a bunch of young Oxbridge elitists who have never had to earn a crust. Labour must stand of course but nead not try too hard.jim mcleannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-15762054647996510992016-10-26T23:45:40.981+01:002016-10-26T23:45:40.981+01:00Rather shallow analysis there. There is unlikely t...Rather shallow analysis there. There is unlikely to be another byelection before the triggering of Art.50.<br />Throwing away the chance to send a signal on this issue is pissing away the chance to influence an event which will put thousands of "proletariat" jobs in danger. Further, it is an event which will likely change the trajectory of this country permanently and not for the better. <br /><br />All this should be considered more so because Richmond Park is, let's face it, not a place the proletariat are going to win a seat any time soon.<br /><br />But then, you're just living the religious zealotry of individualist economics, where Brexit turbulence and the economy will return to trend. So you deny the importance of events and deny path dependence.Metatonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175633633918800979noreply@blogger.com