tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post2233883354681604332..comments2024-03-29T07:14:55.029+00:00Comments on All That Is Solid ...: The Far Left After the ElectionPhilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-47161206964033173252010-05-17T19:34:25.523+01:002010-05-17T19:34:25.523+01:00Or something any socialist wanting a mass audience...Or something any socialist wanting a mass audience for socialist politics should be seriously considering.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-66362884801658065272010-05-17T19:17:28.398+01:002010-05-17T19:17:28.398+01:00Bloody hell Phil, we've come full circle! Tha...Bloody hell Phil, we've come full circle! That last sentence sounds like something Kinnock would have said at the 1985 Labour Party Conference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-84152799484830070472010-05-15T09:05:18.572+01:002010-05-15T09:05:18.572+01:00Erm, no Mark. I would agree that the building of a...Erm, no Mark. I would agree that the building of a democratic centralist organisation inside Labour would have been very difficult during the last 16 years. Difficult, but not impossible. I still believe there was a space to the left of Labour where a small but significant party of the left could have been built - the SLP and Socialist Alliance were the best bets but a mix of stupidity and sectarianism scuppered their chances. And now that space is closing it will be even more difficult to build a political alternative that would attract mass working class support. So difficult that faced with a growing mass of pissed off workers that the SWP and SP will revert to type and concentrate on narrow party building. That's all fine and dandy but it does not address the crisis of working class political representation as theorised by the SP. <br /><br />But returning to the point of the discussion, we are faced with the situation where the bulk of organised Marxists - in the SP, SWP and the rest - are politically isolated from the bulk of politically active workers, who are still found in the Labour party. If wanting to be part of this mass and attempting to influence it (albeit in a very modest way) makes me an opportunist then I would say other Marxists could do with a dose of opportunism. The alternative is a warm feeling of superiority and self-satisfaction - but at the price of being largely ignored by the working class.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-54973687043847525352010-05-15T04:04:40.828+01:002010-05-15T04:04:40.828+01:00Re: the questions raised by Anonymous above...
Ra...Re: the questions raised by Anonymous above...<br /><br />Rather than clog-up Phil's blog with my reply I have posted a reply here: <br /><br />http://nextleft2010.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I invite those interested in the future of the Marxist left to read my comments and post constructive responses.Michael Fisherhttp://nextleft2010.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-24652744395949633692010-05-14T23:05:08.490+01:002010-05-14T23:05:08.490+01:00Phil:
What you are describing, at best, is the bu...Phil:<br /><br />What you are describing, at best, is the building of a leftish reformist tendency (the LRC) inside the Labour Party without raising any kind of Marxist banner. That may or may not be useful, but it certainly isn't Marxist work of a kind consistent with any aspect of the Trotskyist tradition. <br /><br />The closest parallel I can think of is the opportunist period of the Healyites when they hid their own politics and pretended to be Tribunites. Although Tribune in that period was to the left of today's LRC and the Labour Party was certainly to the left of New Labour, so their opportunism wasn't quite as extreme as yours.<br /><br />And jokes about 57 varieties aside, there is essentially nobody trying to build a Marxist tendency in the Labour Party. Every group has given up the ghost, fallen apart of left the Labour Party. Even Socialist Action (if anyone considers them Marxists) have largely decamped to Respect, while Socialist Appeal are only nominally in Labour and do all of the little work they do outside the party.<br /><br />Now you may think that there's nobody attempting to build a Marxist tendency in New Labour because every other Marxist in Britain lacks your penetrating insight. I tend to think that it's because it isn't possible under current conditions. But if you are serious about your Marxism and you are serious about working in Labour, that's what you should be doing.<br /><br />But you aren't doing that and have no intention of doing that. Which leads me to conclude that your shift to the Labour Party isn't a case of a tactical disagreement with the Socialist Party, but reflects a shift away from the whole idea of building a revolutionary tendency anywhere.Mark Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-56495093899590084742010-05-14T22:45:06.430+01:002010-05-14T22:45:06.430+01:00Phil, you missed the point about the general elect...Phil, you missed the point about the general election. TUSC was created as a place holder, mainly to prevent others from stepping into the grass. This was the reason for the little efforts invested in it and the poorer results.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-73324928569856145482010-05-14T14:24:53.524+01:002010-05-14T14:24:53.524+01:00Meanwhile, a proper bourgeois worker party across ...Meanwhile, a proper bourgeois worker party across the English channel was a big winner in regional elections, having been formed not on the heavy reliance of trade union money, but by active ordinary workers, rank-and-file trade unionists, pensioners, intellectuals, and students on the basis of some sort of populist socialism.<br /><br />The two leader's of this party's regional organization belong to the left wing of the national party, the first person belonging to the Socialist Left and the second belonging to the Anti-Capitalist Left.<br /><br />Of course, I am writing about none other than Die Linke, and regional leaders Bärbel Beuermann and Wolfgang Zimmermann.Jacob Richternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-5392239985484142182010-05-13T20:11:35.160+01:002010-05-13T20:11:35.160+01:00Michael,
We'll await your views on Australia ...Michael,<br /><br />We'll await your views on Australia then but on the current discussion - you dismiss New Labour and you dismiss the TUSC and SP and it seems all other left projects outside of Labour.<br /><br />So what is your alternative? Do you have one? Do you want to see a broad workers' political formation in Britain? If so, how do you see it concretely developing? What role do you see for socialists, Trotskyists and Marxists?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-29540271726132960222010-05-12T18:45:16.534+01:002010-05-12T18:45:16.534+01:00Dave, elections more or less provide a snapshot of...Dave, elections more or less provide a snapshot of support candidates and/or parties have among the electorate. The reason why I think the Respect votes are significant is because their vote effects the mass but localised support they have in their core areas. To have held on to that and, in Salma Yaqoob's case, increase her vote suggests to me that from the point of view of building an independent left wing challenge the sort of community graft Respect does is something the left can learn from. This is why I find your point about the Tories confusing.<br /><br />This is also why I went on to talk about the political practice of British Trotskyism. From years of being on the far left I know very few groups really care about election results - yours and others' arguments on this thread demonstrates that's still the case. I also know Trotskyist organisations would like to put down roots in working class communities. So when their votes are in decline election on election, it is reasonable to suggest something might be going awry with the way it organises community work. What I've outlined here is one obstacle as I experienced it to doing that kind of work.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-74235173276879487682010-05-12T18:28:04.981+01:002010-05-12T18:28:04.981+01:00Fair enough Mark, I accept your points. What I hav...Fair enough Mark, I accept your points. What I have been trying to do since joining is find out who the like-minded people are, who have sound politics, etc, and then take it from there. Sure, I'm not building a distinctive Marxist tendency - but with 57 varieties about to suit all Trotskyist tastes I don't consider that particularly pressing. What is more important is to use the Labour party to enable people to become involved in working class politics - be it in the trade unions, communities or whatever - and propagate socialist ideas. I might just be one person, albeit with a small group of like-minded comrades, but I believe the opportunities for this sort of work are better in the Labour party than being part of a small disciplined collective outside the Labour party.<br /><br />On Problems of Entrism, it is funny you should mention that because I have been planning to read it for a long time. Generally speaking I think there are lessons the LRC can learn from Militant's experience in Labour, even though it's not a democratic centralist organisation.<br /><br />And as for Tristram Hunt, I'm sure not even Militant called right-wingers of old every name under the sun during election campaigns. We know where each other stands - we meet eye to eye on the importance of cooperatives, local regeneration, and the rebuilding of the local party - but on little else. I see little point in denouncing someone for having crap opinions when I have to work with them.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-68086525566462220932010-05-12T12:54:12.810+01:002010-05-12T12:54:12.810+01:00I think this is a very informative debate. I have ...I think this is a very informative debate. I have learnt that TUSC wasn't a failure because, as many people (SP members?) pointed out, the Socialist Party recruited a lot of new members and raised some money. I'm eagerly waiting for TUSC 2.0. Let the recruitment drive begin!Frenchienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-65517327966315007732010-05-11T23:17:29.515+01:002010-05-11T23:17:29.515+01:00As I am not a member or a supporter of the ALP I w...As I am not a member or a supporter of the ALP I would be happy to critique them. Should Phil initiate a discussion on Australian politics I will be among the first to join in.Michael Fishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-69322695552633747692010-05-11T20:57:32.152+01:002010-05-11T20:57:32.152+01:00Will no-one reply to Michael Fisher and assuage hi...Will no-one reply to Michael Fisher and assuage his need for very serious attention to his latest pompous, cynical diatribe?<br /><br />Please Michael, give us a searing critique of the ACTU and the neo-liberal ALP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-75749145392989922872010-05-11T19:22:57.313+01:002010-05-11T19:22:57.313+01:00Phil, if the game is to be judged by "who got...Phil, if the game is to be judged by "who got the most votes", well the Tories got a healthy share of working class votes - healthier than Respect at least - so there is an element of comparing like with like.<br /><br />Moreover, if the 30,000 this time denotes 'doing something right', are we to reach the same rather facile conclusions about the 117,000 first preference votes for the SSP in 2003? Or about the 68,000 in 2005 for Respect? For all that, nothing much seems to have come out of it.<br /><br />My point was, and analogies to the side, that this criterion for judging elections - on votes alone - is a bad one precisely because genuine socialist parties don't play the 'electoral game' with the same methods as bourgeois parties, nor, truthfully, with the same aims. One aim is to get votes - but there are others, which are more central.<br /><br />For socialists, these provide the key to engagement with our class, and a means to get a response moving when the next wave of attacks come along. For Labour, recruits can come or go. There's no class-based, action-based orientation on the part of any CLP that I've ever seen.<br /><br />Which is why Labour have armies of happy-go-lucky election warriors and socialists don't. It's easy to win people across when you're not really asking them to commit to much beyond some vague ideas of equality. The same is probably true of elections, come to that.<br /><br />Election results go up and down, and I'm sure there are some lessons to be taken from this, but it can't be done from the one-sided picture of the figures alone. Money brought in off stalls, contacts made with local unions or community groups and doors knocked on, versus money spent and votes gained - these are some more indicators which are absent above.<br /><br />I'm not saying I agree with TUSC's strategy completely - though I like that local unions and activists in various areas came together under the banner with their own candidates and hope that this will lead somewhere. There are criticisms to be made - but the weakest one is to say "the figures are crap" and then to go on and smack organisational structures about on the strength of that alone.<br /><br />Bearing in mind this focus on electoral activity, it's easy to see why some comrades have thought you are simply seeking electoral success and will dispense with things that get in the way of that, regardless of their other uses. Under such assault, how these things can be better used - e.g. the paper - will lie by the wayside.<br /><br />And, to bring this to a conclusion, this is where I get the impression that you seek a linear development. Of electoral numbers going up - crystallised in your comment to me about how the SP have stood in elections since 1992, but that their figures don't seem to be going up all that much, if it all, when they aren't going down.<br /><br />Which may be true, but even a cursory comparison of the organisation in the 1990s, after the tidal wave of the poll tax had subsided, with what it is today, should show that things are getting better from a nadir, in terms of membership numbers, morale and even the political development of comrades. These improvements - some of which are bettered by pushing comrades on to the streets, in the intense atmosphere of a GE campaign - will prove to be more important in swinging the unions and working class into action than the 8 million votes of Labour.<br /><br />Which, as Kinnock showed all through the 1980s, can count for nothing.Dave Semplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11876639425450919663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-89578377667085569402010-05-11T18:59:04.574+01:002010-05-11T18:59:04.574+01:00Actually Phil, I'm not questioning your charac...Actually Phil, I'm not questioning your character. I'm questioning your judgment and your politics. I'm told you are quite a nice lad. And you didn't at all address my point in your rush to take offence.<br /><br />As I said at the start of my last comment, lets leave aside the question of the class character of the Labour Party for a moment. Let's leave you your delusion that Labour now is in its essentials the same as it was in Lenin's time.<br /><br />Even if you are right on that (and you aren't), what you are doing is politically confused and politically unprincipled. You aren't trying to build a Marxist tendency within the Labour Party. Thus far your "strategy" has been to join as an individual and to work as an individual to get a Blairite shitbag elected.<br /><br />You have uttered barely a word of criticism of said Blairite shitbag on this blog since the stitch up that selected him was completed. Here you have something of an outlet - are you ruthlessly exposing said shitbag? Are you carefully measuring his neo-liberal business as usual politics against a Marxist programme? Are you carrying out Marxist work in the Labour Party? <br /><br />No, you aren't. You have disappeared as an atomised individual into a party which only has one use for you. And already you are adapting to that changed social reality. <br /><br />Even if you get involved in the LRC, the last concentration of leftists in the Labour Party, you will find yourself working in a barely functional and deeply reformist current. Again, not Marxist work in a mass party. You have no strategy to accomplish anything - at least not one that you have outlined in even the most basic terms.<br /><br />That's not an example of me questioning your character. I'm questioning your political judgment. As for me reflecting poorly on my party, perhaps I do. You reflect well on your own, if only because it otherwise mostly consists of right wing filth. <br /><br />I suggest again that if you are serious about accomplishing something in the Labour Party that a remedial course in entry work may be in order.<br /><br />By the way, the reference to phone banking isnt an obsession of mine. It's an obsession of New Labour's, with nice scripted messages. Are you telling me you didn't spend much of the campaign phone banking? Because if you didn't Stoke Central is quite unusual.Mark Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-41625210159105456482010-05-11T18:58:28.268+01:002010-05-11T18:58:28.268+01:00Dave, your wish is my command.
On the point about...Dave, your wish is my command.<br /><br />On the point about Labour, of course all those things have happened. The point of dispute is whether that has forced a qualitative change in the character of the Labour party from a bourgeois workers' party to straight bourgeois party. I don't think so, for reasons outlined elsewhere.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-80140790614524709332010-05-11T18:50:15.074+01:002010-05-11T18:50:15.074+01:00Get real, Danielle. There's more to socialist ...Get real, Danielle. There's more to socialist politics than flogging papers.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-44489282973856088912010-05-11T18:49:12.307+01:002010-05-11T18:49:12.307+01:00Journeyman, I can understand your reading of my po...Journeyman, I can understand your reading of my position even though I disagree with it. The problem is seeing the TUSC vote as a 'beginning' is very difficult when the SP has stood independently in one guise or another since 1992. As I said earlier if you play the electoral game you invite to be judged in those terms. If a bourgeois party sees its vote decline from contest to contest it asks itself serious questions. I see no reason why working class organisations shouldn't do the same.<br /><br />You're dead right about meetings. Labour meetings are dull and all about business. That said I've sat through worse and there are openings to try and address this lack of politics at the heart of the organisation. It's something I'll be looking at over the coming weeks. But every ex-SP comrade I know locally looks back at party meetings with a certain fondness.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-3190800689938619432010-05-11T18:44:52.702+01:002010-05-11T18:44:52.702+01:00Ignore that bit about whether or not the rest of u...Ignore that bit about whether or not the rest of us are getting a reply, you've just put your reply up - curse my impatience!Dave Semplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11876639425450919663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-57203868484795928202010-05-11T18:43:11.287+01:002010-05-11T18:43:11.287+01:00Are the rest of us to get a response, Phil, or sha...Are the rest of us to get a response, Phil, or shall we draw the curtain down for now?<br /><br />(Incidentally, and not to intrude on the argument with Mark, the 'fundamental change' in Labour is easily asserted in the quantitative decline of its membership base and the practices and traditions upon which its affiliation with the working class depended, resulting in a qualitative swing observable in the attitudes of the Parliamentary party. Now I'm not arguing "Labour is the same as all the rest", and other SP comrades are entitled to their view - but things aren't as unsubstantiated as you suggest. As I say, I don't want to get involved there and we can have this discussion another time).Dave Semplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11876639425450919663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-66715621738377209972010-05-11T18:39:37.827+01:002010-05-11T18:39:37.827+01:00Dave, this is an analysis of election results. If ...Dave, this is an analysis of election results. If you play the electoral game expect the outcomes to be judged by the rules of the game. So yes, from the standpoint of results, clearly Respect have got something right in being able to draw in mass but localised support from some of the most oppressed sections of our class. This is something no left group has managed independently of Labour since the proper CPGB pulled it off after the war. So I find your bringing the Tories into the discussion rather peculiar and not particularly relevant, because we're not comparing like with like.<br /><br />Re: the point about the SP's declining vote. It's pretty obvious I was talking about the general election vote. 2010 declined on 2005's figures. 2005's were a decline on 2001's. I don't have the 1997 ones to hand to see if the trend stretches back that far. <br /><br />On the class vote, no, the Labour party isn't fit for purpose. But how could it be? It is after all a bourgeois workers' party. My arguments around the Labour party have always been that the opportunities for rebuilding the labour movement and bringing masses of working class people into politics are greater inside the party than outside it. If I turn out to be wrong I will say so - I have no compulsion to be seen to be always right - but with a Tory-Lib government pretty much a certainty now, I think the gaps and opportunities to Labour's left that existed earlier in the 00s are largely gone.<br /><br />Btw, where do you think I've provided a linear argument?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-42849638121431680172010-05-11T18:18:05.135+01:002010-05-11T18:18:05.135+01:00This is where we part company with our analysis, M...This is where we part company with our analysis, Mark. You and the SP believe there has been a fundamental change in the character of Labour (try as I might I cannot find the article/set of articles that roughly point to when this qualitative change took place - care to enlighten me?) I don't. <br /><br />And where does your strange obsession with phone canvassing come from? I knocked on doors, I spoke to people and, yes, talked about socialist policies and ideas with dozens of loyal, wavering and former Labour supporters. And this could not be otherwise - the only way I know how to canvas is as a socialist. <br /><br />I resent your snidey aping of comrades above trying to cast aspersions on my political character as a clumsy means of trying to wriggle out responding to the measured points the article makes. You're not doing yourself or your organisation any favours.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06298147857234479278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-23665194222396942312010-05-11T15:33:13.610+01:002010-05-11T15:33:13.610+01:00I'm sorry, Coventry comrades, but it appears t...I'm sorry, Coventry comrades, but it appears the fact that 2,631 people voted for us in wards we had NO CHANCE OF WINNING is a failure! That the £2000+ we raised leading up to the election on stalls - which were mainly staffed by volunteers - plus the trade union cash is a mere irrelevance! That the new recruits through the campaign are no gain whatsoever, all because we lost a councillor and got a poor vote in the general.<br /><br />Phil, you've given up on the struggle, 'comrade', and I pity you.Daniellenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-21140650486209010792010-05-11T09:22:58.279+01:002010-05-11T09:22:58.279+01:00Phil
I don't have a problem that you are ques...Phil<br /><br />I don't have a problem that you are questioning the SP's electoral tactics - even if you were still a member - it is legitimate to question what were undeniably poor results generally for TUSC.<br /><br />But I do have a problem that to counter this your have a position which I'm afraid can only be described as 'hope for the best' entryism.<br /><br />TUSC was/is a modest but necessary beginning - and I would suggest that what is needed now is consistency and patience rather than excessive navel contemplating. <br /><br />Your criticisms about the conservative nature of revolutionary parties do have a ring of truth. But it's not a new point - and it needs very careful consideration less we end up liquidating ourselves into some sort of post-Trotskyist think tank.<br /><br />Talking of sterile meetings though - I would have thought that after a few Labour Party branch meetings (do they still have them ? ) you must be remembering SP meetings with fond nostalgia!<br /><br />Fraternally<br />JourneymanJourneymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537094981931276738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486641877026778105.post-9990956161216583052010-05-10T21:35:05.283+01:002010-05-10T21:35:05.283+01:00"There is undeniable class content to this sw..."There is undeniable class content to this swing, but merely repeated ad nauseam - as Andy Newman and others seem to - that it is a 'class vote' doesn't make it any more helpful to the Left. It just means that the Labour leadership will have to kick workers about a bit more, and socialists will have to work a bit harder, before an alternative organisation is found. It is not an affirmation that the current organisation is suitable."<br /><br />No - that is wrong.<br />What happened during the Blair years was an erasure of class from the vocabulary of the Labour Party in particular, and even within the unions to a certain extent<br /><br />Class consciousness is a necessary precondition for socialist organistion and the rebuilding of shop floor organisation.<br /><br />So I see an unexpected resurgence of class manifested in this election as an unalloyed GOOD THING.<br /><br />You are ambivelent it seems over whether it is a good thing, becase it complicates your a priori presumptions about what organisation form such class consciousness needs to be atached to.<br /><br />A revival of class consiousness in attachement to laboursm means that overall the workers movement is stronger.<br /><br />and that is the criteria by whch we must judge it.andy newmanhttp://www.socialistunity.comnoreply@blogger.com